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## CHAT LOG for Sunday, September 23, 2007

12:05 am
smooth_pappa

start
12:10 am
smooth_pappa

done no greens
12:40 am
jawilke

go.. no greens
12:42 am
jawilke

done
1:44 am

statr
3:19 am
eyeman

a harder easy but done.
6:43 am
franebrown

sadly resorted to greens near the end.
7:57 am
brittlefish.com

go
8:15 am
brittlefish.com

church...
8:15 am
raerae7133

does that mean done? :)
8:27 am
ypsigirl

done
9:55 am
UnikeTheHunter

Always seems like a good omen when I get the middle cell first.
9:57 am
raerae7133

I find I have better luck when the given numbers are in a pattern ;)
11:14 am
brittlefish.com

okay, game on
11:19 am
brittlefish.com

done. no greens.
1:05 pm
drwho

Difficulty score 31. More than usual reliance on missing digit scans needed today.
1:09 pm
drwho

Patterns of givens? Number the rows and columns from 1 to 9 in order. Now take the row and column number of any given. Subtract the row number from 10 to get a new row. Subtract the column number from 10 to get a new row. Now look at the cell located at the new row and column and you will find another given. That's enough of a pattern for me.
1:10 pm
drwho

Oops, ...subtract the colunm number from 10 to get a new COLUMN...
1:14 pm
hurshy

i think what drwho is trying to say is that the grid has rotational symmetry
1:14 pm
hurshy

as we learned that they always do.
1:14 pm
drwho

Or stated more intuitively, rotate the puzzle 180 degrees in the plane of the puzzle and the pattern of givens in the rotated puzzle will exactly match the pattern of the original puzzle.
1:14 pm
hokie carla

I do better if I don't read what all you geniuses have to say. :-)
1:15 pm
hurshy

all he did was say the definition of rotational symmetry.
1:15 pm
hurshy

it's not that complicated
1:16 pm
drwho

Yes, hurshy, here the puzzles have rotational symetry. Most computer generated ones do. But it is not absolutely necessary for a Sudoku puzzle to have symetrical clues.
1:16 pm
hurshy

i know it isn't necessary, and i think it is funny that they make them have it, just for fun i guess.
1:16 pm
hurshy

i guess people really like symmetry.
1:18 pm
hurshy

it really boggles the mind trying to think of the numbers of puzzles involved, that there are so many they can stick to only ones that are rotationally symmetric and still have billions.
1:18 pm
drwho

I don't know, but I think there may be a reason for the symetry beyond just fun. It might be such patterns are more likely to eliminate unique rectangle situations.
1:20 pm
hurshy

almost every animal is symmetrical, but plants are generally not. that is funny too.
1:20 pm
drwho

Actually plants have a kind of fractal symetry.
1:21 pm
hurshy

yes but it's not so obvious to the naked eye
1:22 pm
drwho

The classic example is a fern frond. If you picture the big frond then rotate it and shrink it you can map it onto branches of itself.
1:22 pm
drwho

In fact there are just 2 linear transformations needed to describe the entire idealized frond.
1:23 pm
hurshy

idealized frond. :)
1:25 pm
drwho

I suspect that the genetic encoding has something analogous to the iterated function set that mathematicians use to describe a fern frond.
1:25 pm
hurshy

i suppose it must
1:26 pm
hurshy

i found out yesterday that in a normal healthy human pregnancy, the measurement of the bump in centimeters is equal to the number of weeks along the mother is. isn't that amazing?
1:27 pm
hokie carla

that's why they say stuff like, "you're measuring a few weeks earlier."
1:27 pm
hurshy

well i never knew they said stuff like that. i have never really been involved with pregnancy. but now my sister is having a baby.
1:28 pm
hokie carla

well, not that it really means anything. I measured on time the whole time, but then my 1st was 15 days late.
1:28 pm
hokie carla

and congrats!
1:28 pm
drwho

Wikipedia has an article on iterated function systems that shows the frond illustration:
1:28 pm
drwho

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iterated_functio
n_system
1:29 pm
hurshy

it doesn't matter though hokie, it's not about accurately predicting the due date, the fact that they would correspond at all is just so weird
1:29 pm
hurshy

i mean i suppose most mothers wouldn't care about that, if it doesn't help predict when the baby will come
1:29 pm
hurshy

but just at face value, it is a very odd thing.
1:30 pm
hokie carla

yeah, I guess so
1:31 pm
drwho

Actually hurshy, what you have just described is what would be expected if the rate of growth of the baby is geometric, that is proportional to the baby's current size.
1:32 pm
hurshy

but why should it correspond to the metric system? that's the part that gets me
1:32 pm
drwho

Hmmm....
1:32 pm
hurshy

it just shows at what an extremely deep level things are connected, i think.
1:33 pm
drwho

Naw, just coincidence. Unless the diameter of a pregnant woman's belly is somehow connected to the diameter of the earth :-).
1:34 pm
hokie carla

well, when you think about it, there are lots of odd things about babies, their formation, birth, etc. that's why most people say babies are miracles.
1:35 pm
helenkeller

1:37 pm
hokie carla

alright, I'm finished and off to finish cleaning out the garage. have a good day, all!
1:39 pm
hurshy

aren't metric measurements now based on something on the atomic level?
1:39 pm
hurshy

or is that just time
1:42 pm
hurshy

yes, see
1:42 pm
hurshy

Since 1983 the metre has been defined as the distance light travels in a given fraction of a second in a vacuum. Thus the definition of the metre ultimately regained a linkage with a natural property, this time a property thought immutable in our universe and truly universal.
1:43 pm
hurshy

it's just the most mind-blowing thing.
1:53 pm
drwho

Originally, the kilometer was defined to be 1/10,000 of the diameter of the earth. They goofed on the calculation though and made the meter too small for the definition.
1:53 pm
hurshy

i know, but, the modern definitions are based on tiny things.
1:56 pm
drwho

Yes. The assumption that subatomic properties are truly universal and immutable has been getting some challenges lately.
1:57 pm
btwrt

wow, this is all so far over my head but interesting :)
1:57 pm
hurshy

still they're PRETTY universal and isn't it just kick-you-in-the-crotch-spit-on-your-neck fantastic that this one thing over here corresponds to this totally other thing over there?
1:57 pm
hurshy

hellooooooooooo buttwart
1:57 pm
drwho

Time is another measurement based on a subatomic phenomenom. (Oscillation of cessium atoms).
1:58 pm
btwrt

hellooooooooooo i need a nickname for you that is similar to yours for me ...
1:58 pm
btwrt

by which i mean, unflattering. but your sn doesn't give me any ideas
1:59 pm
hurshy

phew.
1:59 pm
drwho

I got a crude idea, but I don't want to drag things down...
2:00 pm
drwho

...Oh wait, buttwart is almost as crude as hershey loaf.
2:00 pm
hurshy

i've had enough people treating me like a whore to last a lifetime, i don't need more crudity
2:00 pm
drwho

Sorry hurshy.
2:00 pm
btwrt

hershey loaf only makes me think of a large block of delicious chocolate
2:00 pm
hurshy

it's ok
2:01 pm
hurshy

all of it is all rachael's fault anyway, when you get right down to it.
2:01 pm
btwrt

so whenever i see hurshy i think, oooh, yumm
2:01 pm
btwrt

haha, yes, Everything is rachael's fault. that makes it so easy!
2:01 pm
hurshy

:)
2:02 pm
btwrt

things continue to improve, btw, so during service i get to say 'thanks' instead of whining
2:03 pm
btwrt

not that i couldn't have been thankful before but, well, y'know
2:03 pm
hurshy

lol
2:04 pm
hurshy

i just logged in
2:04 pm
btwrt

yep, i saw you pop up. oooh yumm
2:04 pm
hurshy

lol
2:06 pm
btwrt

have you ever read 'the purpose driven life'?
2:06 pm
hurshy

no... it was too popular
2:06 pm
btwrt

its awesome. my church is doing a study of it
2:07 pm
hurshy

everybody says it's awesome...
2:07 pm
btwrt

i'm the same way with a book that is all popular like that. nevertheless, it's a great book. i'm trying to get will to read it
2:07 pm
hurshy

but the popularity makes me hesitate
2:07 pm
btwrt

nahh, don't hesitate, i don't go in for fads or anything and i say its great ;)
2:07 pm

2:08 pm
hurshy

but isn't it just going to make me think i ought to get back together with chris?
2:08 pm
btwrt

if w2 reads it and takes it to heart, then he oughta start figuring out all that stuff he's been having trouble with
2:08 pm
btwrt

not that i know of
2:08 pm
btwrt

it's ... broader than that sort of thing i'd say at least so far. i'm one week into it
2:08 pm
hurshy

i suppose he might, but don't forget dear, that reading a thing and putting it into practice do not happen together as often as one might wish
2:09 pm
btwrt

oh no worries, i expect absolutely nothing from him at this point
2:09 pm
hurshy

thank you artlady - it is ironic though. popularity of time works fine for me (ie i love the classics) but popularity of numbers for NEW books scares me off
2:09 pm
btwrt

it really ... so far it does a great job of addressing our whole 'me' generation and how to get the right frame of mind
2:10 pm

I find every time someone recommends a best seller as something I MUST read, because I'll LOVE it--I don't.
2:10 pm
btwrt

i know, well, there are wayyy too many books that say 'new york times best seller' on them. do they just put ALL books on that list now?
2:10 pm
hurshy

well i'll wait until you finish and see if you still think it is great and whether you think it will do me good or depress me.
2:10 pm

lol, bt
2:11 pm
UnikeTheHunter

You ladies have got the side of my screen scrolling non-stop.
2:11 pm
btwrt

in my defense, i didn't say she'd love it, i said i think it's awesome ;) i could never claim to figure what hursh would think of something, she's too particular
2:11 pm
btwrt

yay us (in response to unike)
2:11 pm
hurshy

hunter, that is the way it always is at babble...
2:11 pm

Usually not so much chatter here
2:11 pm
btwrt

yeah, babble is wayyy too fast paced for me. i like my more typically stodgy ironsudoku
2:11 pm
hurshy

but i bet you could figure if it would depress me or not once you finish it, you know me well enough by now
2:12 pm
btwrt

well i would say so far that i think it shouldn't. a lot of it IS frame of mind. being aware of our shortcomings but not focusing on that ... focusing on how truly and incomparably we are loved
2:13 pm
hurshy

that's true... marty does love me an awful lot
2:13 pm
btwrt

don't forget, i've made my share of mistakes in my life and i find it to be very uplifting and thought-provoking. also in many ways i feel validated for what i have been attempting to do.
2:13 pm
hurshy

you've made mistakes but you're not as much of a jerk as me
2:13 pm
btwrt

mebbe after i finish it i'll mail it to you ;) i still need to mail your darned b-day present
2:14 pm
btwrt

hahaha, not a jerk, how little you know me ;)
2:14 pm
hurshy

you got me a present? how exciting
2:14 pm
btwrt

yeah in nyc and i keep forgetting to mail it. i suck.
2:14 pm
hurshy

no you don't, you got me a present! lol
2:14 pm
btwrt

and i thought at one point will might have broken it, in the airport, but i think it's ok
2:14 pm
hurshy

lol
2:14 pm
btwrt

yes but i haven't mailed it, that's just retarded
2:15 pm
hurshy

well i am thrilled anyway.
2:15 pm
btwrt

i'm trying to gather opinions, so anybody who has one ... my ex-fiance, who i just last week broke things off with, wants to come up from texas where he lives in two weeks for my son's third birthday ... good idea?
2:16 pm
btwrt

on the one hand, there is not wanting to deny my son interaction with someone who cares about him ... on the other hand, there is whether it's a good idea to prolong the relationship since it's not going to become what we thought it was. my son has lost 2 dads already and he's only (nearly) 3
2:18 pm
btwrt

... wow ... i killed the chatterbox
2:19 pm
hurshy

people don't know you are too opinionated to be pressured into anything by their advice and they don't want so much responsibility
2:19 pm

just no opinion here!
2:20 pm
btwrt

oh, haha, i see. i only like to gather opinions like i'm polling or something. because mostly my family is pretty biased and they say things like 'you're too nice'
2:20 pm
btwrt

and i know that's innacurate
2:20 pm
helenkeller

i think i've officially become mentally retarded - took me 2 tries & lots of greens to do this puppy
2:21 pm

Oh thank you hk!! I'm struggling and feeling really stupid!
2:21 pm

misery does love company
2:21 pm

There's a hard from last week I've started 3 times. Still no luck!
2:22 pm
helenkeller

heya art - i think i've been at it for well over 1/2 an hour
2:23 pm

Well,I'm watching the Cubs game at the same time, so not too focused on numbers...unless they're baseball #'s
2:23 pm
helenkeller

buttwart - here's what i think: depends alot on how the 2 of you left your relationship, are you able to be more than cordial, if yes, then by all means, but your child & ex should both be completely aware, respectively of the ex's new status as a 'good friend, who lives very far away'
2:24 pm
helenkeller

and i am watching football x2 - lions & packers games both on
2:24 pm

What's the Packers score?
2:25 pm

Hard to explain that to a 3 year old, tho
2:25 pm

( Ok, I guess I DO have an opinion!) ;-)
2:25 pm
btwrt

thanks helen! :) yeah ... we are perfectly cordial actually. i was thinking probably of letting him come. just that my family in general is like, umm, why?
2:25 pm
btwrt

well, my son doesn't really appear to care as far as i can tell. he's a very singular child, he's not too concerned about the roles of the people around him as long as mommy and grandma & grandpa are usually around
2:26 pm
helenkeller

san diego 21 - gb 17
2:26 pm
btwrt

i just wish i could know what the long terms effects of these various guys coming into his life and abruptly leaving will be
2:28 pm
helenkeller

there's no telling that - depends on the child's psychological make-up for one & how many other stable figures are in his life - sounds like you've got this covered.
2:29 pm
helenkeller

i'm outta here now, gl artlady, later gators :)
2:29 pm

ciao, hk
2:31 pm
drwho

btwrt - an opinion from a guy who knows how they think. If you broke it off with him and he suggested the visit, he might be hoping to change your mind.
2:32 pm
btwrt

drwho - yeah, i don't know. because we had long-distance relationship for a while, hursh thinks mebbe he's trying to keep the same type of arrangement but not in name
2:33 pm
hurshy

drwho is assuming that the man has a spine
2:34 pm
btwrt

oh, right, oops ;)
2:39 pm
btwrt

we're not meaning to bash my ex, drwho ;) just ... he's not a forceful person by any sense of the word. he's very 'float-along-ish'
2:42 pm
hurshy

and therefore unlikely to actively try to get her back
2:42 pm
drwho

It is not necessary for him to be forceful, just wishful thinking on his part. If you see him showering attention on your son and spend some more time with him he may hope you will change your mind.
2:42 pm
hurshy

or heck, even passively.
3:01 pm
btwrt

you could be right drwho. thanks :) a guy's perspective is always helpful
3:06 pm
drwho

You're welcome.
3:07 pm
drwho

I've been keeping one eye on the Twins game, one eye on the chatterbox and trying to practice the trumpet too.
3:08 pm
btwrt

wow, that's busy! i manage to chat two places and sing while i'm doing it and that nearly overloads me
3:09 pm
drwho

Well, I can't play the trumpet for any long period of time, so I break it up with other things.
3:09 pm
btwrt

conversely, i can't focus on much of anything if i'm not singing
3:10 pm
btwrt

thankfully i was homeschooled and my mom let me sing to myself while i did my math. i think in a regular school i would've failed
3:11 pm
drwho

Well you would have been kicked out of study hall.
3:12 pm
btwrt

i can only imagine
3:13 pm
btwrt

i would have disturbed the kids who need silence in order to work
3:13 pm
drwho

Humming loudly to yourself is even more effective...
3:14 pm
drwho

...at disturbing other people.
3:14 pm
btwrt

heh heh
3:14 pm
drwho

Take it from someone who knows.
3:14 pm
btwrt

oh, i believe you
3:15 pm
btwrt

anyone who plays a trumpet must now how to annoy other people when they want to
3:15 pm
btwrt

my brother used to wake us up with his at 6 am on opening morning, because my parents were out hunting so he wouldn't get in trouble for it
3:18 pm
drwho

Yes, I have some pratice playing bugle calls in the morning.
3:19 pm
btwrt

as i suspected
3:19 pm
drwho

For the benefit of my sister.
3:19 pm
drwho

She is not a morning person.
3:20 pm
drwho

Neither am I, but loving brothers make sacrifices to show you how much we care.
3:20 pm
btwrt

lol, that's awesome
3:20 pm
btwrt

the crap that brothers do ... i have one and i'm glad he lives 1000 miles away now
3:21 pm
drwho

In another 25 years you may start rethinking that.
3:22 pm
btwrt

i'm being mostly fascetious, i miss him quite a lot :) the plan is to become fabulously wealthy so i can fly around and visit everyone all the time
3:23 pm
drwho

I'm sure when my sister sees me it's like the skunk said when the wind changed...
3:23 pm
drwho

..."It all comes back to me now!"
3:24 pm
hurshy

lol
3:24 pm
btwrt

haha, that's great
3:24 pm
btwrt

i am reminded of my brother all the time, my left wrist will never be the same, and then there's the scar on my right pinkie
3:26 pm
btwrt

hursh wouldn't know the dangers of having a brother, she's got only sisters
3:28 pm
hurshy

this is true
3:33 pm
drwho

Little Wille mean as hell,
Threw his sister in the well,
Mother said while drawing water,
"Sure is tough to raise a daughter."
3:33 pm
btwrt

HAHA
3:33 pm
btwrt

did you have to go look that up?
3:33 pm
drwho

Not today.
3:34 pm
drwho

That's one of my email signatures.
3:34 pm
btwrt

what a great thing to have memorized. i need to memorize it
3:34 pm
btwrt

oh ok!
3:34 pm
btwrt

i have jabberwocky memorized but it just never comes up in conversation to recite it
3:35 pm
drwho

"twas brillig and the slithy toves, ...
3:36 pm
btwrt

yes, i would finish it up for you but i always get yelled at when i recite the whole thing
3:37 pm
drwho

Have you seen any "explanations" of what it means?
3:38 pm
hurshy

anyone explaining what it means obviously has missed the whole point
3:39 pm
btwrt

i just figured since he was on something, that's why it's incomprehensible but fun
3:41 pm
drwho

Lewis Carols explanation was verging on an introduction to information theory. He said it sounded like it meant something even though it didn't.
3:42 pm
drwho

The point being that a signal containing information is fundamentally from one devoid of information content.
3:42 pm
drwho

... fundamentally DIFFERENT ...
3:42 pm
drwho

Speaking of signals devoid of information content...
3:45 pm
drwho

But, if Jabberwocky sounds like it has information content then it probably does, even if it means nothing to us!
3:46 pm
btwrt

i feel stupid now. i tend to just try to enjoy things ... i never liked it in high school when you were supposed to write out what the author was trying to say. i always thought, i am just making something up or assuming something, who knows what the author intended. or whether they intended anything at all!
3:47 pm
btwrt

i like to think that some authors write stories just for the joy of writing a story, and not because they are making a point ;)
3:47 pm
drwho

I hated that in high school too.
3:49 pm
btwrt

i love showing my son movies or reading him books that are just stories - where at no point is there anything approaching 'and the moral of this story is ...'
3:50 pm
btwrt

not that morals are bad but lately, in kids stuff, it seems like they are everywhere and everything is a plot device
3:51 pm
drwho

When it comes to Lewis Carrol, he was actually professor of mathematics at Oxford or Cambridge. He wrote a book "Symbolic Logic" which lays the ground work for computer languages.
3:52 pm
drwho

So it's not hard to see some more subtle mathematical themes in his work.
3:53 pm
drwho

Even his children's books.
3:53 pm
btwrt

oh ok, that's very cool, i didn't know that
3:54 pm
drwho

If you can get a copy of "The Hunting of the Snark" read the preface or introduction, he admits as much.
3:55 pm
btwrt

ooh, that sounds cool - i have not heard of that one. i might have been incorrect, my mom always said he was on something when he wrote alice in wonderland and through the looking glass
3:56 pm
btwrt

you hear that about a lot of people (or at least, i do) such as edgar allen poe, and the founding fathers.
3:58 pm
btwrt

anything like that, which lays the groundwork for computer programming, is very interesting to me. i design websites altho at this point the most i do is DHTML and a little php, but someday i want to do more programming
3:58 pm
drwho

I don't know about Carroll, but there were no laws against recreational drugs and it was even fashionable to have drug parties.
3:59 pm
drwho

Online version of Hunting of the Snark, an Agony in Eight Fits.
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/moden
g/public/CarSnar.html
3:59 pm
btwrt

right :)
4:06 pm
btwrt

i highly enjoyed that explanation
4:08 pm
drwho

You will even find some pronunciation help for Jabberwocky in the preface of Hunting of the Snark.
4:21 pm
btwrt

yeah, and i feel like i had read that little bit before, but not the rest of it
4:22 pm
btwrt

i like his explanation of the word 'frumious'
4:22 pm
drwho

I seem to remember seeing a 2nd edition which had a very different preface, but I can't find it anywhere.
4:25 pm
drwho

Yes, the explanation of the word frumious seems to indicate Carroll had a meaning in mind when he invented the "nonsense" poem Jabberwocky.
4:25 pm
btwrt

it would be interesting to know which words his made-up words were rooted out of
4:27 pm
drwho

I think Martin Gardener wrote (or edited) a book called The Annotated Lewis Carroll which attempts to answer questions like that, and suggests what Carroll may have really been referring to in his "nonsense" lines.
4:29 pm
drwho

Okay, it's The Annotated Alice.
4:33 pm
btwrt

that sounds like it would be a fun book to write
4:39 pm
drwho

Extremely informative about how Lewis Carroll came to write Alice in Wonderland. He was actually writing down stories he used to tell 3 girls he tended occasionally, probably not on drugs.
4:45 pm
btwrt

i love those sorts of things - like winnie the pooh, and the thomas the train stories
4:51 pm
drwho

Or maybe The Wizard of Oz, which also was originally stories Frank Baum told his childres and later committed to print.
4:51 pm
drwho

I've got to go now. Enjoyed the chat.
4:55 pm
btwrt

yeah, me too :) ttyl!
6:51 pm
yul

hey btwrt. long time no see
6:51 pm
btwrt

hey yul, i know! i've been so busy. how have you been?
6:53 pm
yul

very well thanks :) I usually here a bit earlier
6:54 pm
yul

so pleased to see you are well too
7:13 pm
btwrt

yep, i'm good. months behind in my sudoku, aie, i'm not going to stress myself out trying to catch up. just do some of the old easies
9:35 pm
Nef

Hi. I joined a while back but haven't played for a while. I wanted to check my account and got a warning saying I'd lose my moves since they aren't saved. How do I do that?
9:37 pm
Nef

well, now I see I didn't "join" I guess I signed up before! How do I save my data so I CAN JOIN?
9:39 pm
Nef

Hmmm, looks like I'm here alone. Might as well try what I want to and lose any data I have (or scroll back to this page)
10:00 pm
Nef

DARN! So now I see that if I don't click on the "SAVE" button, all my data is lost! RATS!!!
10:16 pm
btwrt

hey, sorry, i was off somewhere or i might could have helped you out with that. hope it's all figured out now
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