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Difficulty: Easy Saturday, July 13, 2019

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CHAT LOG for Saturday, July 13, 2019

1:08 am

I received my Trump 2020 shirt in the mail today! I’m wearing it tomorrow. More and more people are waking up to the benefits of having Trump in the White House!
1:37 am

There are benefits to having Trump in the White House? On this side of the pond, we just view having Trump in the White House as having Made the good old USA the laughing stock of the world. Of course, we may soon have a prime minister who will make us a bigger laughing stock of the world....
3:56 am

digondda, shame the US ambassador was sacked for telling the truth, yet the US President lies every time his thumbs hit the phone keypad. Can you imagine a British or Australian PM that fragile? If we had a politician lie and get caught out or that incompetent he'd be gone in a matter of days, yet their crazy political system means they're stuck with him. Sadly though if the Dems can't come up with a central leaning candidate they will probably lose again. Learn from the Aus election where labour went too far to the left. Trump is clever at playing the political system. He doesn't care about anyone other than himself, but as much as his views are divisive, hateful, disrespectful, mysoginistic, etc, the Dems need to unite behind a strong candidate who is probably to the right of centre to beat him.
4:03 am

Montreal 13, Australia actually has a very good start, for the 60 ,000 years the indigenous peoples lived in harmony with the land. Then along came us white fellas who think we know best and can bully, kill and give all our self indulgent bad habits to. We still can't even bring ourselves at a political right wing level to do the right thing and include them in our decisions that effects their future. Instead of asking them what they want and listening to what they suggest might work, we keep blundering on thinking we know best.
4:07 am

That said, I am for the first time optimistic that there is sufficient political will from both parties to unite with the majority of the population to actually come up with a way forward. We will probably have to listen to far too much right wing extremist hate speech much as the LGBTQI community had to during the lead up to marriage equality.
4:12 am

Montreal 13, Having said all that, the way Australia was colonised by the British (and I was born in the UK) was probably a reflection on the tough times of the day. I strongly urge you to visit Port Arthur in Tasmania, where they have amazing tour guides, most defended from those early convicts held at that penal colony. As bad as conditions were, and as bad as the policy of incarceration for trivial by todays standard offences, they were fed and watered well and actually had lived longer than they would have at that time in the UK. It's an incredibly moving experience to go there. Allow at the very least a full day.
4:17 am

The world was very different then but the people, convicts and those who were free were and are probably why Australians are as a general rule, hard working, classless free thinkers who would lay down their lives for their mates, don't take life too seriously and take the word of politicians with a healthy grain of salt. It's still a bloody tough country when you get out in the bush.
5:26 am

Two months ago I met somebody who was born in a concentration camp in 1943. That camp was Westerbork, one of the six or seven concentration camps in the Hetherlands in WW2. Westerbork was actually built as a refugee camp for German Jews who had crossed the border (illegally!). Only in 1942 teh German took over the camp and changed it into a "Durchgangslager" whre Jews and Roma wer locked up before they would be transported to Germany. Each Tuesday a train would depart to Auschwitz-Birkenau.
5:36 am

@SamanthaJoy - excellent point about death panels. What continues to confound me (and there have been some excellent articles on the point) is the complete rejection by Trump supporters of basic Christian values. Do they really think that Jesus would act the way Trump is acting?
6:01 am

./2 Westerbork was bad, but not as bad as many other camps. Some stayed there for years before they were sent elsewhere. The parents of the man I mentioned were there for two years. The father had a double nationality (also British) so the family were reated as hostages that could be traded against high ranking POWs (it never happened).

The camp commander was a narcist that had one of the prisoners film camp life. Mostly idealized, but there is also footage of the weekly departure of the train to Auschwitz. With a famous shot of a Roma girl in a cattle wagon staring at the camera. With white chalk on that wagon is written: 87 pers. That dos not need translation.
6:01 am

6:20 am

./3 That train was filmed 19 May, 1944. The last train from Westerbork left 15 September, 1944. Anne Frank and het family were in that train.

There is much mor to tell about this, but let's just stop here. The similarity to what happens in the US these days is obvious.
6:21 am

./4 correction that was Sept. 13
6:46 am

Phil, US history is a bit different. In 2016 a moderate, centrist Democrat lost to Mr. Trump.
6:49 am

Mr O, Thank you for the history reminders. I had family in France, Germany, and Poland. Those who had not immigrated to the United States perished. Some who had immigrated returned and fought. I had the privilege of getting to know some of my ancestors who fought in WWI and others who fought in WWII, heroes.
7:03 am

Easy puzzle, but I allowed myself to become distracted and made a simple mistake... second time through was very easy.
8:27 am

8:33 am

9:44 am

Probably a lot of The Other are hiding in attics and basements this weekend. Perhaps some young girl will keep a diary...
10:54 am

It's not as if the raids this weekend are anything new, btw. They're getting more publicity these days, but ICE (and before ICE was formed, Immigration) raids, looking for people who are here without current papers, have ben a thing for literally as long as I can remember, during any administration.

10:57 am

Samantha Joy - re: debating the meaning of concentration camps. I think it's historically very important. As my mother was in a nazi POW camp & my father in a Siberian labor camp, they were more than knowledgeable about the differences between the camps. The important thing to remember here is that, in no time in it's history, did Poland ever have either death camps or (as we define the word today) concentration camps. To the people in those camps, those 2 words, in WWII Europe, were equivalent, they meant the same thing - a concentration camp was a death camp & vice versa. They meant the same thing - you went to a concentration camp, you likely expected to die. The same was less true for refugee camps (I have a friend whose parents met in one & he was born there - is a a retired professor of English who regularly travels and talks about his experiences, also a poet), POW camps. Yet more true for Siberian labor camps & gulags. Those prisoners, for the most part, simply starved & froze to death. To those survivors, these difference remain very important, because the words immediately convey the level of suffering a person experienced.
11:02 am

Are you distinguishing between Poland and German-occupied Poland? Because not to put too fine a point on it, but Auschwitz was in Poland.
11:10 am

SJ - excuse me? Poland did not build Auschwitz or any of the other camps in Poland during WWII. Well, that's not true - Polish workers built them under the nazi whip. In case you were not aware, Poland was a, relatively speaking, peaceful country, which fell very quickly for lack of resources, or AID, to the nazis. Your fine point is a slap in the face & fyi, in Poland today, you would be charged with a crime for the inference of your fine point - THERE WERE NO SUCH THINGS AS POLISH CONCENTRATION CAMPS. There is literally a law aimed at erasing that idea. You would be put on trial for 'your fine point.' That's how seriously they take this kind of misinformation. There was a Polish government-in-exile, and they quite certainly did not order any camps to be built. Are you just forgetting that Poland was the major victim of WWII? I'm rather shocked that's what you focused on amid everything I wrote.
11:18 am

I'm not saying that they were Polish-built; I'm questioning the terms you're using. Saying that "Poland never had [x] camps" means to most people, I think, that there were none in Poland; that was my original take, and when I asked my husband, that was his immediate interpretation.

It's not even a fine point; we both had to sit and think to figure out that you (probably) meant that Poland didn't actively build them, rather than that they weren't in Poland.

So, and this is an honest suggestion aimed at easing possible confusions, if I were you I'd rephrase that slightly in the future for clarity.
11:20 am

As to the differences between camps, yes, I believe I understand you. But Germany doesn't have a monopoly on the term; America had concentration camps at the same time, where we rounded up Japanese citizens. Conditions were certainly better in those camps than in the German ones, but they were both concentration camps.
11:32 am

SJ No, I am perfectly clear in what I say. You know SJ, just because 'most people' view something a certain way, does not mean they are viewing it the correct way. It's not my fault the rest of the world is not educated enough to understand this 'fine point.' What you're saying is correct enough from your perspective, because I'm guessing here, you're American & so were your parents and maybe your grandparents. So, here in the US, you were virtually untouched by WWII & were able to make the distinction you do. Not so in Europe. That's what I'm attempting to enlighten you about. The nazis DID indeed have a monopoly on that word - in Europe. I believe saying 'conditions were better' is being obtuse, at best. The concentration camps here in the US did not come with gas chambers, no one preformed unconcionable 'science experiments' on the residents . There is a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE when an individual knows they going to be interned for a while, and when a person knows before hand they are being sent there to die. The level of horror is one that so few Americans have any grasp of is tragic to me.
11:36 am

Most people who learn English as a second language find that it is somewhat a wasteland of words. There are concepts in many other languages that just do not translate into English. But, believe you me, when I say Europeans have a much different perception of what a concentration camp is than you do. There just is no comparison.
11:47 am

11:51 am

I'm just going to turn your words back on you . . . "Just because 'Europeans' view something a certain way, does not mean they are viewing it the correct way.

The US had concentration camps then. They have them now. You yourself just used those words to describe them. Japan's used them. China's used them. Australia's used them. Britain's used them. Finland's used them. In some the conditions were humane; in others they weren't. That doesn't make the words used to describe them inaccurate.

And as to the other: You're arguing about something that no one is disagreeing with. The construction of words is immaterial to the subject. If I were to say that there is no Pflugerville water park, people would point to the water park in Pflugerville and I'd then have to clarify that no, it's not owned by Pflugerville and Pflugerville didn't build it.

For my money it's better to avoid the confusion and say that "Pflugerville didn't build the water park" in the first place. That's all.

I am more than done.
12:30 pm

SJ - First, when I said 'done' - I was referring to the puzzle, not our conversation. So you know, the Polish Government today definitely disagrees with you. 'The construction of words does indeed make concepts inaccurate, and there is a law aimed at preventing false usage of words - such as 'Polish Concentration Camps.' That will land you in jail. You are so wrong - WWII happened in Europe, nazi concentration camps were in Europe, the Europeans have first hand experience and knowledge about what went on in these places - so naturally they are indeed viewing it the correct way. I was raised with the motto, 'NEVER FORGET.' When I allow someone to say that all concentration camps are the same, that would be going against my deeply instilled knowledge and values. You cannot ever turn those words back on me. The difference between you & I is that I'm insisting on absolutely taking into account the European view of concentration camps. When we Americans throw that word around. It dishonors all those who suffered. You should know already that Pfluegerville didn't build the water park. I should not have to tell you that. Also just because we live in the USA, does not mean the entire universe revolves around us.
5:57 pm

VERY fast clicker. 8.
8:11 pm

I was fortunate to be able to visit Terezin near Prague in 2015.
8:14 pm

The suffering was horrific. We must never forget.
8:15 pm

On a lighter note, whilst sipping your favourite brand of coffee - and yes Perth does have the best baristas anywhere in the world! Contentious but true, suck it up Melbourne!
8:41 pm

Aussie word of the day - deso anyone other than an aussie or cousins across the ditch like to have a guess as to it's meaning, and no cheating looking it up in an aussie ap!
8:48 pm

8:58 pm

10:28 pm

done yesterdays
10:36 pm

The US does not have concentration camps. We have detention centers where people from Guatemala and Honduras voluntarily come up through Mexico and apply for asylum knowing ahead of time that they will, BY US LAW, be placed in them. Some are run well and some are run poorly but the same thing could be said about prisons, schools, and other areas where people congregate. No one is forcing people to come here - they come of their own volition knowing the risks of the journey and knowing they will be detained when they get here. As far as the ICE raids, they are scheduled to begin on Monday. They are focused on people who have already received deportation orders but have not obeyed the orders. THis is not Trump's fault. It is the fault of our gutless (both parties) representatives and senators who are more interested in reelection than in representing the people. The biggest problem in our representative republic form of government is that, unlike the presidency and the judiciary, the congress has no term limits. They get on the government tit and can't let go.