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Difficulty: Expert Monday, April 9, 2007

Not Completed Play This Puzzle

CHAT LOG for Monday, April 9, 2007

12:10 am
kebek

expert!
12:30 am
lawfully

done
1:37 am
peternl

hmmmm
1:51 am
Vega

hmmmm indeed...
1:53 am
kebek

too many green numbers, i think i'm too tired for this.
2:56 am
augurus

Next song to get a horrible rendition on Karaoke Revolution: Paint It, Green.
4:30 am
h

go
4:42 am
sprite

my eternal sudoku song is from Love Story. ...where do I begin....
4:47 am
h

13 filled, green-time...
4:53 am
NonoNanette

same here and green not helping much
4:54 am
Python Taz

its screwy
4:59 am
sprite

let's see if concentrating helps
5:03 am
h

huh - i took one guess and it all worked out... done.
5:03 am
sprite

congrats
5:04 am
NonoNanette

must have hit the same guess... done
5:05 am
NonoNanette

off to Babble land
5:05 am
sprite

babble is great today
6:31 am
eyeman

how about that! One green and done in 12 minutes. Just find where to put the green. Happy Monday all.
7:09 am
smooth_pappa

hmmm... 11 filled in and getting slower
7:12 am
franebrown

not one filled in...............
7:13 am
smooth_pappa

up to 19 nw
7:15 am
smooth_pappa

done... definitely used greens
7:16 am
night_walker_52

Morning all
7:17 am
smooth_pappa

morning night walker... have a good day, I'm off
7:17 am
night_walker_52

your done? Was it hard?
7:19 am
dan2bit

that's what she said, night_walker
7:32 am
Andy

You're all scaring me about today's. My wife is working on it now (she's silently lurking) and is telling me how bad it is
7:34 am
night_walker_52

Darn, made a mistake, have to start over
7:43 am
Andy

On to today's... and go...
7:51 am
Andy

11 filled in on the first cross hatch pass + greens added.
8:01 am
Andy

13 in now and stopped dead. Can't find any X or Y wings or Unique Rectangles or hidden pairs.
8:02 am
night_walker_52

I'm at the same place you are Andy
8:03 am
aa

And Andy's wife (Andy here, I moved over to her computer so we can work together on this)
8:06 am
chebuctonian

woot! an expert!
8:21 am
gman

yep; stopped dead at 13. Don't want to guess!
8:23 am
night_walker_52

Found a y-wing and an x-wing after that. But now I'm stumped again
8:25 am
OrangeSlice

Mondays are not good expert days.
8:28 am
chebuctonian

oh #$% I hate it when a client sends an urgent bug report in the middle of a sudoku
8:29 am
aa

we just found a type 4b unique rectangle
8:33 am
Andy

The 4b lead to the XY wing which lead to the X wing...
8:33 am
night_walker_52

Idon't won't to guess but this is a tough one
8:37 am
night_walker_52

Have to give kids a ride to friends house
8:37 am
OrangeSlice

I don't like having this many tri-value cells.
8:39 am
Andy

Found an XYZ wing... this is stretching my limits here...
8:40 am
Andy

Still only 13 filled in despite all of these eliminations
8:42 am
OrangeSlice

hmm, I also have 13 now after finding a hidden triple.
8:47 am
hokie carla

ah, I just marked all greens & guessed lucky on a pair. took me about 5 min.
8:47 am
hurshy

haha, i just noticed it's an expert
8:47 am
hurshy

i always feel i can do better if i don't look what the level is
8:48 am
hokie carla

I don't like the trial & error method, but I'm behind in the archives & have a lot of stuff to do today.
8:48 am
Andy

aa just guessed at a cell and solved it. I'm being anal-retentive and trying to solve it without that guess.
8:48 am
Andy

Then again, I have a lot to get done.
8:48 am
hurshy

i just got to 13 myself.
8:48 am
Andy

lucky 13
8:48 am
hokie carla

hurshy: I agree. I'm doing Sat.'s Easy right now & wish I hadn't seen it was an easy first.
8:49 am
OrangeSlice

I found a y-wing, still haven't seen that xyz Andy mentioned.
8:49 am
hokie carla

I still refuse to learn all the terms you all throw around.
8:49 am
hurshy

i haven't put in greens yet
8:49 am
hurshy

i'm getting the sense i shall have to
8:49 am
gman

OrangeSlice: How many have you filled in??
8:50 am
OrangeSlice

Thirteen.
8:50 am
hurshy

lucky thirteen!
8:50 am
Andy

Where have I heard that before?
8:51 am
hurshy

lotsa places!
8:51 am
Andy

And at 8:48AM :)
8:51 am
hurshy

oh lol
8:51 am
gman

and Friday the 13th coming up. Maybe it's a astral thing.
8:51 am
hurshy

i'm a dolt
8:52 am
hurshy

but this is good that we have an expert so i can practice these things OS taught me
8:53 am
hurshy

oh oh i think i have a thing!
8:53 am
hurshy

no maybe not
8:54 am
hurshy

i should finish filling in the greens
8:54 am
Andy

Done. Nasty nasty nasty.
8:55 am
hurshy

oh, don't say that
8:55 am
hurshy

say... challenging
8:56 am
gman

andy; trial & error???
8:59 am
hurshy

don't hurt the poor little grid's feelings
9:03 am
Andy

My wife found a cell which she believed could only be one number. She couldn't really explain why to me but i tried it out and it worked. So, half-guess, half luck?
9:03 am
hurshy

we may never know...
9:03 am
Andy

I would love to find out what the logical solution is. But now I must work.
9:03 am
abstract17fr

hi all
9:04 am
abstract17fr

can u tell me what she find ?
9:04 am
hurshy

nonononononononono
9:04 am
abstract17fr

:)
9:04 am
abstract17fr

ok :))
9:04 am
Andy

Yeah... that'd be a spoiler...
9:10 am
hurshy

OS, i'm looking at 1,3; 7,1; 8,3 - is that something?
9:10 am
night_walker_52

Done with a guess
9:11 am
OrangeSlice

7 throws it off.
9:11 am
hurshy

7... throws... what... of?
9:11 am
hurshy

off
9:12 am
OrangeSlice

And this is exactly the reason why all the experts in the archives have absolutely no help in the chat log.
9:12 am
hurshy

that and people do them on other days...
9:12 am
OrangeSlice

A hundred lines of "I guessed"
9:14 am
hurshy

you said it can work if i have 3 in one cell and 2 in two other cells but i'm having trouble seeing how
9:15 am
OrangeSlice

You gave me three 2-value cells...
9:15 am
hurshy

oh bummer, my 8,3 has 3 values
9:15 am
hurshy

how have i not eliminated one there, hmmm
9:17 am
OrangeSlice

xyz-wing is a non-aligned triple, same principle as the xy-wing, but all three cells must be able to see something, where you can remove all 3 numbers. The only stipulation is that the three-value cell must be the 'root' of the technique, not one of the wings.
9:17 am
hurshy

all THREE must be able to see something
9:17 am
hurshy

ah.
9:18 am
hurshy

but you're saying that this is an xy wing and i just stupidly have not eliminated one value.
9:18 am
OrangeSlice

It could be. We don't know if it is or not until that value is removed :)
9:18 am
hurshy

but YOU removed it
9:19 am
hurshy

and *I* have NOT
9:19 am
hurshy

QED, i am stupid.
9:19 am
night_walker_52

http://www.scanraid.com/BasicStrategies.htm#N
P
9:19 am
OrangeSlice

I did?
9:19 am
hurshy

you said i gave you 3 2-value cells
9:19 am
hurshy

and one of them i have 3 values in
9:19 am
hurshy

so.
9:19 am
OrangeSlice

You did.
9:19 am
hurshy

there is SOMETHING i have not removed that i should have.
9:20 am
night_walker_52

that is a pretty good web site to help explain sudoku stratigies
9:20 am
OrangeSlice

"i'm looking at 1,3; 7,1; 8,3 - is that something?"
9:20 am
hurshy

yes those were row col references.
9:20 am
OrangeSlice

er... oh.
9:21 am
hurshy

lol
9:23 am
hurshy

ok so now that you know what i meant, IS it something? i guess not cause they can't all 3 see something?
9:23 am
OrangeSlice

I see what you mean now, but I don't see anything all three of them can remove. The only cell they can all 'see' is the locked 1 directly above the trivalue cell.
9:24 am
yul

hello everybody
9:24 am
hurshy

right. see and i thought you were saying you had only 2 values in 8,3, so... hehehe
9:24 am
OrangeSlice

There is a y-wing involving that R7C1 cell, though. It expands to the right.
9:25 am
hurshy

oh dear, what is a y-wing again?
9:25 am
night_walker_52

hurshy check out that web site
9:25 am
hurshy

i've read websites to no avail
9:25 am
OrangeSlice

exactly what we would have been looking at if R8C3 had two values in it :)
9:26 am
hurshy

only orange slice, and a puzzle right in front of me, has done me any good with these advanced things
9:26 am
hurshy

oh i thought that was an xy-wing
9:26 am
night_walker_52

try this one tho, it's not to bad
9:26 am
hurshy

i am getting confused about the names
9:26 am
hurshy

oh oh oh i think i see it
9:26 am
hurshy

ok give me a think minute.
9:26 am
OrangeSlice

that would have been an xyz-wing, the name comes from the three-value root cell.
9:27 am
hurshy

no but i... so what is the diff between xy-wing and y-wing, if any?
9:27 am
OrangeSlice

Different names for the same technique.
9:28 am
hurshy

phew.
9:29 am
hurshy

ok but wait i don't see the xy wing, is it using 8,2 and 7,6?
9:29 am
hurshy

the thing they both see i can't elim from
9:30 am
OrangeSlice

8,6 and 9,5
9:30 am
hurshy

good golly
9:30 am
hurshy

8.6 doesn't even have a similar set of numbers
9:31 am
hurshy

you mean 7,6?
9:31 am
hurshy

and that would be the root?
9:31 am
hurshy

yes!
9:31 am
hurshy

yes!
9:31 am
hurshy

i think i see it!
9:31 am
OrangeSlice

did I say 8,6? lol, yes I mean 7,6.
9:32 am
hurshy

ok i got it
9:32 am
hurshy

i eliminated a value!
9:32 am
hurshy

only i dunno if it helps any further, lol
9:32 am
OrangeSlice

Yeah, it doesn't solve anything, only removes a '2'.
9:32 am
hurshy

bugger.
9:33 am
hurshy

so are we at the exact same spot now?
9:33 am
hurshy

i think i sees an xyz wing...
9:33 am
OrangeSlice

I haven't done anything fancy since there, so probably.
9:33 am
hurshy

no, they don't all 3 see anything but locked cells...
9:33 am
OrangeSlice

I'm scanning for conjugates right now.
9:34 am
hurshy

*is afraid to ask*
9:34 am
OrangeSlice

And trying to do something with the rectangle across the middle rows.
9:34 am
hurshy

yeah those fours and nines are bugging me
9:34 am
hurshy

the 8s are just everywhere, it's like 8 vomit
9:34 am
OrangeSlice

And I have to go in 5 minutes. Not sure I'm going to solve it this morning.
9:35 am
hurshy

oh no!
9:35 am
hurshy

what will i do then??
9:35 am
OrangeSlice

I'll be back this afternoon to finish it.
9:35 am
hurshy

*sheepishly* what time?
9:36 am
gman

Hey guys, the 2 that was eliminated inR7,C4 just opened a unique rectangle, I believe that will eliminate bunches of other 2's. Does anybody see it yet?
9:36 am
OrangeSlice

4 ish
9:36 am
hurshy

eastern?
9:36 am
OrangeSlice

Unless I miss the bus, in which case it will be 6 ish.
9:36 am
OrangeSlice

Whatever time is on here. The site is 2 hours ahead of me.
9:36 am
hurshy

a unique... where where???? i don't see one
9:37 am
OrangeSlice

Anyway, I'm out. bbl
9:37 am
hurshy

so you're saying 2 PM pacific?
9:37 am
OrangeSlice

And good luck.
9:37 am
hurshy

i've become a groupie. *hangs head in shame*
9:37 am
OrangeSlice

Probably, yes.
9:37 am
hurshy

ttfn :)
9:38 am
gman

hurshy---R6 Cols 1&8 R7 cols 1 & 8 e;im about 5 2's above them.
9:39 am
hurshy

oh, but that has nothing to do with the 2 we just eliminated
9:40 am
hurshy

is nice though
9:40 am
hurshy

should have seen that
9:43 am
hurshy

but you said BUNCHES... i've only elim'd those 2... hmmm
9:51 am
hurshy

that upper middle box is tooooooooooooooo green
9:58 am
Krys10

i found a unique rectangle in the middle strip - is that the one you guys are talking about, or are you ahead of me?
9:59 am
hurshy

with 2's and 3's? that's what we're talking about.
9:59 am
Krys10

ok, i think we're in the same place
10:00 am
hurshy

and that place would be.... stuck.
10:00 am
Krys10

with all these pairs there must be a wing somewhere
10:00 am
hurshy

there's a xy-wing in the bottom
10:00 am
hurshy

rooted in 7,6
10:01 am
Krys10

k
10:01 am
hurshy

after that, stuck stuck.
10:02 am
Krys10

oh yes, that was the 2 you guys were talking about before
10:02 am
hurshy

yeah.
10:05 am
Krys10

so, there is an x-wing that allows you to eliminate three 2's
10:05 am
hurshy

ok help me see that please!
10:06 am
Krys10

there's two rows where there are only two spots for 2's
10:06 am
Krys10

and these only spots also line up in columns
10:06 am
hurshy

6 and 9
10:06 am
hurshy

oh and 7
10:06 am
hurshy

6 and 7 then
10:06 am
Krys10

rows 7 & 8 in my case
10:07 am
Krys10

wait, are you talking about numbers or rows?
10:07 am
hurshy

kkk
10:07 am
hurshy

rows
10:07 am
Krys10

we're looking in different placs
10:07 am
Krys10

places
10:08 am
hurshy

row 8 has a ZILLION places for twos!
10:08 am
Krys10

i said it wrong i'm sorry, rows 6 and 7
10:08 am
Krys10

not awake yet
10:08 am
hurshy

see :)
10:08 am
hurshy

i mean si :)
10:08 am
hurshy

i mean hahahaha, at least we both have the same thing
10:09 am
Krys10

i'm going to have to come back to this
10:09 am
Krys10

sorry
10:09 am
hurshy

ok thanks for the x-wing
10:09 am
Krys10

:)
10:09 am
Krys10

good luck!
10:09 am
chebuctonian

hmm... I have 3 in row 7
10:09 am
chebuctonian

hmm... I have 3 in row 7
10:09 am
hurshy

that must be because you didn't do the xy-wing yet
10:10 am
hurshy

the one that is rooted in 7,6
10:10 am
hurshy

i am starting to feel a little smarter
10:10 am
hurshy

though why, i dunno, i have found nothing good on my own, only with people pointing them out.
10:11 am
hurshy

but at least i understand the things! that is a step.
10:11 am
chebuctonian

ok, so the consensus is that X-Wing is the first strategy to unblock things here?
10:12 am
yul

it's time to start greens :(
10:12 am
hurshy

no, the xy-wing has to come before the x-wing
10:13 am
hurshy

and also you have to do the unique rectangle before the x-wing
10:13 am
chebuctonian

damn
10:13 am
hurshy

and even after the x-wing, i'm still rather stuck...
10:14 am
chebuctonian

# XY-Chains
# XYZ-Wing lol.. .these names are so dorky
10:14 am
hurshy

yes, rather.
10:28 am
hurshy

friendless, brainless, helpless, hopeless!
10:30 am
chebuctonian

I'm finding some of these strategies insanely complex
10:30 am
hurshy

well yes, that's the fun of it
10:31 am
chebuctonian

at some point, you're better off trying a value for a square that has only two values - and seeing if that leads to an impossibility
10:31 am
hurshy

cause then once you finally understand them you can be all smug
10:31 am
hurshy

nonononono
10:31 am
chebuctonian

some of the experts here can take solvers over a hundred steps - which would take an entire day to any reasonnable human
10:31 am
hurshy

orangeslice promised me i never have to force.
10:31 am
hurshy

"better off" in the sense of like um, yeah, if you want to do other things
10:32 am
hurshy

but not better off in the sense of ultimate happiness
10:33 am
chebuctonian

hey, all that got me was 2 more numbers
10:33 am
chebuctonian

I still have to apply some strategy to it :)
10:33 am
hurshy

:)
10:34 am
hurshy

it's like the belgian nuns who made rachel's imaginary wedding veil
10:34 am
chebuctonian

there's got to be a way to figure out what places the best guesses can be made
10:35 am
hurshy

even though they lost their sight, it was worth it...
10:35 am
chebuctonian

I have a programming background. I don't think humans should use brute-force to solve problems like these. I'm more interested in finding strategies that make best use of our talents
10:36 am
hurshy

can you find a strategy to make the best of my talents (ie get me a JOB)
10:36 am
chebuctonian

for most people, a JOB isn't the best use of their talents :)
10:37 am
hurshy

well sitting around doing sudoku and chatting with people online is presumably not the best use of mine... at least a job would be some improvement
10:37 am
chebuctonian

in a couple hundred years people will look back upon our era, shocked at what we considered normal- just as we look back upon serfs
10:37 am
hurshy

yeah, i know what you mean.
10:38 am
hurshy

i have lots of objections to the world of work, yet i need something to doooooooooooooooooooo
10:38 am
hurshy

that and i'm leaving my husband and have to support myself.
10:40 am
hurshy

dangitall this is a very hard puzzle
10:46 am
yul

hurshy, are you using red and greens?
10:46 am
hurshy

greens, yes
10:46 am
hurshy

and have used one unique rectangle, one xy-wing, and one x-wing
10:46 am
chebuctonian

finally!
10:46 am
yul

so, why not the second colour?
10:47 am
hurshy

what good would the second colour do? unless you mean a forcing chain
10:47 am
hurshy

and orangeslice PROMISED
10:47 am
Stephanie

How do you make the reds?
10:47 am
hurshy

alt-click
10:48 am
Stephanie

thanks
10:48 am
yul

yes, why not forcing chains?
10:48 am
hurshy

because they are CHEAP
10:48 am
hurshy

unsatisfying
10:48 am
hurshy

and orangeslice has promised me that they will never be necessary
10:49 am
hurshy

i used them before cause people said they were the only way
10:49 am
hurshy

but now i have seen the light, and orangeslice is my sudoku salvation
10:49 am
hurshy

i am putting my faith in him
10:49 am
yul

ok
10:49 am
hurshy

not that there's anything wrong with forcing chains...
10:49 am
yul

I think, everything is possible
10:50 am
hurshy

i just don't WANT to have to use them.
10:50 am
yul

clear enough :)
10:51 am
Krys10

hurshy - i found an xyz wing too, but so far that has only removed one possibility for me
10:51 am
hurshy

i'm insane, yes.
10:51 am
hurshy

oh oh where krys!!
10:51 am
Krys10

i'm not sure yet whether i believe orangeslice about the no-forcing-chain thing
10:51 am
Krys10

top strip
10:52 am
hurshy

let me see let me see
10:52 am
Krys10

first two boxes
10:52 am
hurshy

what, 1-2-8?
10:53 am
Krys10

yup
10:54 am
hurshy

but he said if it is xyz instead of just xy they have to ALL be able to see the cell where you want to eliminate
10:54 am
hurshy

ohhhh and they do see 3,3
10:54 am
Krys10

yup
10:54 am
hurshy

so, think think
10:56 am
hurshy

i can't get my head around it yet
10:56 am
Krys10

hon, we can call it forcing chains or we can call it nishio or whatever we want, but the elaborate game of "wnat-if" is just as valid as other solving techniques
10:56 am
hurshy

which thing am i going to eliminate in 3,3?
10:57 am
Krys10

think about that "hinge" square, the 1-2-8
10:57 am
hurshy

the 8, right?
10:57 am
Krys10

run through all the possibilities
10:57 am
Krys10

yeah
10:57 am
hurshy

i get it!!!
10:58 am
Krys10

ok, I just took a screen shot of the puzzle at this point and when you and orangeslice figure out how to do it without "what-if", you can explain it to me... but i"m going to the dark side
10:58 am
hurshy

okey doke
11:02 am
hurshy

i bet we need a wxyz wing!
11:02 am
hurshy

lol
11:02 am
Krys10

yeesh
11:03 am
hurshy

this is hilarious really
11:03 am
Krys10

i'm done. very keen to see what you come up with, but i must get started on my day :)
11:03 am
Krys10

good luck
11:08 am
UnikeTheHunter

Go. Cross hatches hard to find.
11:15 am
UnikeTheHunter

Lots of virtual crosshatch.
12:10 pm
moedog

ugh
12:10 pm
moedog

me no likey
12:20 pm
UnikeTheHunter

Uh oh. Bad guess.
12:25 pm
UnikeTheHunter

Done. But I had to guess.
1:01 pm
franebrown

Finally!!! Guessed too much!!! Done!!!
1:22 pm
snppngtrtle

Hey Leigh
1:23 pm
Leigh

yo
1:23 pm
Leigh

are you in class right now? i don't know where you sit.
1:25 pm
Minski

Done! Had to use greenies and made 2 correct guesses but no backtracking.
1:25 pm
snppngtrtle

I'm here. How do you feel about Bannings after class?
1:26 pm
snppngtrtle

I promise not to whine this time.
1:27 pm
Leigh

lol
1:27 pm
Leigh

I'm going to the affirmative action thing, then going home and having lunch with chris
1:27 pm
Leigh

you might be able to convince Andy, though
1:27 pm
Leigh

and I am certainly up for celebratory "brief is done" hanging out this evening
1:27 pm
snppngtrtle

Sounds good!
1:28 pm
snppngtrtle

Anything in mind?
1:28 pm
Leigh

not really
1:28 pm
Leigh

Andy said he wanted to play WoW, and while that sounds good, I think I might be feeling more sociable.
1:30 pm
snppngtrtle

Hmmmmmm... beer and TV?
1:30 pm
Leigh

certainly a possibility
1:30 pm
Leigh

is anything good on on mondays?
1:30 pm
snppngtrtle

Or happy hour at Salvidore Mollies?
1:31 pm
Leigh

hmm, that probably involves spending more money
1:31 pm
snppngtrtle

Only is heros starts again this week.
1:31 pm
snppngtrtle

true
1:31 pm
snppngtrtle

*if
1:31 pm
Leigh

hmmm
1:32 pm
Leigh

checking NBC's websit
1:32 pm
Leigh

e
1:32 pm
Leigh

not till April 23 :-(
1:33 pm
snppngtrtle

Darn
1:33 pm
snppngtrtle

The long-awaited D&D game?
1:34 pm
Leigh

i think we're doing that on wednesday
1:34 pm
snppngtrtle

I see
1:34 pm
Leigh

also, Aaron's character sheet didn't get saved, so remind me to have Kenny redo it
1:35 pm
snppngtrtle

Knitting?
1:35 pm
Leigh

possible
1:35 pm
Leigh

although knitting + drinking = bad, for me anyway
1:35 pm
Leigh

drinking + settlers?
1:35 pm
snppngtrtle

There you go!
1:35 pm
snppngtrtle

Sounds good to me.
1:36 pm
Leigh

cool.
2:45 pm
bloodaxe

how's torts class?
2:46 pm
bloodaxe

damn...i'm late
3:32 pm
bunnyvicious

go
4:02 pm
bunnyvicious

done
4:24 pm
ypsigirl

uh oh dont you hate it when you get so far and realize you screwed something up
4:30 pm
lara226

Hey Ypsi
5:24 pm
helenkeller

go
5:59 pm
OrangeSlice

whew, done.
6:14 pm
helenkeller

done
6:18 pm
ypsigirl

hey Lara I am back
6:18 pm
ypsigirl

but you are not here... going to babble land...
7:34 pm
spazzy

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
7:35 pm
spazzy

i give up
7:37 pm
OrangeSlice

But you're so close!
7:38 pm
OrangeSlice

The key is quite simple really, it's almost silly.
7:38 pm
OrangeSlice

It doesn't exactly jump out at you, but you'll be slapping your forehead when you see it.
7:50 pm
LeslieAnn

what's the fancy name for how to solve today's puzzle, orange?
7:54 pm
OrangeSlice

I'm not sure there is one. I'll call it "invisible conjugates"
7:56 pm
LeslieAnn

hmmm... i've been trying "banging my head against the wall," but it's not working
7:56 pm
OrangeSlice

Bivalue cells that, whichever value they end up as, directly affect a cell aligned with them that shares no common candidates.
7:56 pm
NatLT

hey les!
7:57 pm
LeslieAnn

Hi nat
8:42 pm
WHB

Done at last. It took 2.5 hours.