hi all

Hi peter, not bad for an expert. Difficulty score 44.

good to know

Done

finished with 3% battery left in the powerbook :-)

bedtime

done, it was a very easy expert ... no guesses to get ti done quickly

hi all!

Hallo there

I'm babbling at the same time >.>

go - gaack, 2 experts in a row? sigh...

hi there!!

heyho... gl

who want to chat with me hu???

Again? I felt like I did this yesterday.

no this ones different, the 4s are easier to spot...

Nonetheless, the pattern is very similar.

might be - id have to go look... slow going so far, but steady...

how will i know if i put the right one?

haaayyy...

the right three boxes are all lining up with a nice matching-set of interlocking pairs... im probably hitting the stop-point with 28 left...

Sudoku is a logic-based puzzle: try to deduce the answer.

lai - you never "really know" until the end - when it gives you a message-of-success...

grrr - going green, even tho i can "almost" keep all the pairs straight...

ok..thanks.. :)

ok, i think i get the xywing thing at r7c6... hopefully im not bursting someones solving bubble by giving away too much?

Well by giving the axis away, yes you are being quite sarcastic when you stated that. Fortunately, not everyone understands what XY wing is? Is it, a question?

well - it doesnt look like it solves it completely yet anyways... sigh...

oooh - that swordfish thingie... im finally starting to see them - rather than just force something...

Excellente.

crud - i did something wrong... conflict... sigh...

its too arduous..huh..

well, i tried all sorts of "deductions", then "guesses" that usually caused a "force" fairly quickly - but i just-now finished. i think it took me like 3 more forces after i made some mistake identifying the swordfish-thingie... good luck all - this one was tortuous on me... much worse than yesterdays...

one guess and its done

Same here...

What's strange is that I was testing to see if I understood XY-Wing and tried to see what would happen if I used the value that should be eliminated. That was my guess that solved the puzzle. Guess I don't understand XY-Wing fully yet :)

Yep, never figured out the XY-Wing stuff

good morning! go!

yesterday's is a pain

that one didn't bther me much. today's is sticky, though

whoo hoo! done!

yay pappa :)

goede ochtend vriend!

goedemiddag!

hoewel, ik denk is het geen ochtend voor u?

lol

niet meer, voor u wel?

het is zeven uur op dit ogenblik voor me. te vroeg om op een zondag wakker te zijn. Maar hier ben ik

hier is het 2 uur 's middags, al voelt het als een uur eerder. DST is net ingegaan. Ik wens u een goede zondag :)

You are making me want to run to the store for some stroopwaffles...

well thanks! Enough dutch for me for now... like I said it... I don't think my brain can handle much more yet. ;)

(a habit I picked up from a 2003 trip to Amsterdam :)

awwww stroopwafels... yummie!
It always surprises me that some people know Dutch :)

I had to get up this early for grocery shopping.....I'm about to leave. This is the only time there are not a bajillion people who have no common curtesy running around.

hey Andy! *hug* Long time no see!

morning andy

Morning :)

despite having been to holland, I haven't had stroopwaffles

oh yes pappa, I sympathise completely! Make a quick run and enjoy the rest of your sunday then :)

I need to go some grocery shopping as well. Guess I'm driving up to Providence to hit the whole foods... they carry the stroopwaffles

rhide island... one of the few states I have not yet been to!

You might have... you could sneeze and have missed it :)

that is almost criminal, pappa - you should have had fresh stroopwaffles!

first, is coffee time sprite... Must have it. then shopping

lol Andy

I dont suppose one of you dutch speakers wants to read a .dk blog posting and sumarise it for me?

true pappa. Never face the shops without coffee!

not I ... Duth is definitely not my strong suit

is it long, peter?

You could always use one of the online translators so you know what it DOESN'T say!

A few paragraphs. <http://mikkelwinther.dk/2007/03/jeg-har-vund
et-interarchy/> I wrote Interarchy and I'm just curious what it says...

The one I tried didnt handle dutch

HA! no kidding andy

I'll take a look for you

Isn't .dk Denmark?

lol, that is no dutch, that is denmark

OH! You're THAT Peter! I'm a long time Interarchy user :)

Could be, I can't read it ;-)

Ha, small world ;-)

sorry peter, can't help you with denmark ;)

ah well, not to worry.

True, true... don't tell Jim Matthews though... my name's actually in the original credits for Fetch. I used to go to and work at Dartmouth College.

too bad by brother isn't here... he spent a year in copenhagen, he'd be able to read it

If you're on a bit later, I can call my mother. She speaks/reads Danish.

It's not that important, I was just curious

hi all

morning!

hi abstract

peter, I have some of it for you. it looks like he's done radio work. a dj for a "progressive pop music" show. and his blog talks about online communication, art, music, business, "and much more"

hi abstract

abstract.. nice photo album! I see pictures from valle d'aoste... they make some wonderful cheeses there!

thanks ! yes good cheeses and a nice place to visiting

sadly, I have not been there yet. Only tried a couple of products from there.

I understand :) is a good palce for a holiday .. nice place, nice people, good food and nice prices :)

will remember that! Good place for spending the holidays. Nice pic, abstract!

hope that I'll return one day :)

thanks sprite !

are you in bucharest, abstract?

no

Netherlands - Romania - 0-0 :)

LOL

lol

:)

a nice match ;-)

HUmmmm...this puzzle was about 5x easier than yesterday; 34min. it gives you the opportunity to solve the right third and you can figure out the other 2/3...

I will never understand the ratings of these puzzles anyway.

ok.. have a great day everyone... time to go shopping.... *scowls*

I wish you a quiet store and nice people, pappa :) Have a great sunday.

bye smooth_pappa! good day tooo !

later :)

Now to finish the expert from 3.28.06

anyone have a problem with this site loading lately...taking forever??

Not I

OK, this archival puzzle is giving me a headache. I'm going to go make pancakes for my family. bbl :)

:)

I have pbs with this site sometimes .. it block my browser ( I use Safari)

hi all

come to visit my msn space

http://orsetta87na.spaces.live.com/

write me a comment if you want

I'm waiting for you

:-)

we're not waiting for you!

why?

:)

dumb spammer back again?

good day everyone ! bye bye

bye abstract!

I'm not a spammer

you are

go

well sprite

if you'll go to my space

you'll understand that I'm not a spammer

Infact I don't know who is a spammer

I have never met one

orsetta87, sounds like you really want some attention to your 'myspace' :)

yes because I like that people of other countries

go to visit it and write me a comment in an other language

orsetta87, this isn't an appropriate forum

for what?

for asking people to visit your 'myspace'

for spamming people about your web page

why?

this is a chat

what's the meaning of spamming?

it's a chat for people completing a puzzle. your web page is not about the puzzle.

just because you *can* doesn't mean you *should*

ok I thought that here I could meet new people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forum_spam

done

Go.

oh, I miss all the fun :)

ok, go

Rats. I missed a solo. I have to get better at finding those.

solo?

That's where, when you put in greens, a cell has only one green.

ahhh...

Eyeman, what does an art manager for classical pianists do?

hiello everybody

Hi, Yul.

two experts in the row... i am scared

Can't have you having a relaxing weekend now, could we? :)

no. vigorous exercise is needed before summer

Hi unike - just saw your message. Answer: get work for the pianists.

How did you get started doing that?

finished the puzzle. one green.

wow. That's great.

life experiences, contacts and contracts!

Are you a pianist yourself?

slow going usually. Me a pianist? I used to play pretty badly, but I love the piano repertoire.

It certainly is bigger that, say, the oboe repertoire.

...than...

Or contrabassoon! :)

but most everybody likes the piano, so that helps

gotta go for awile - nice chatting. Back later.

I'm a pianist. I love the cords. But now that I've taken up fiddle and singing, I find I miss the expressiveness of sustained notes on piano.

gotta go for awile - nice chatting. Back later.

two experts in a row, huh? Go

Got it. One guess.

me too. Either these were two very easy experts, or I'm getting better at this game. OR a combination of the two.

Got lucky -- first chain ended in three steps, done

I'm not sure what criteria Dr. God uses to rank easy/med/hard/expert, except that Expert appears to be any puzzle where you have to use forcing chains. It can be very easy and quick to get to that point, but chains do frustrate a lot of people. Having greenies and reddies helps.

that if you can have a second colour ;)

finished. with one simple forcing chain

it pays to find a right place to start the forcing chain. top right square was excellent for that purpose

Naughty naughty.

top right is where I did a guess. actually, wasn't a guess. I was testing if I understood XY correctly and said "What would happen if I filled this in with the value I should eliminate?" I solved the puzzle. And don't quite get XY yet :)

Forcing chains is pointless. Why do you even try to solve it if you are only going to guess your way to the solution. That is not solving.

I almost newer mark greens so it's a bit difficult for me too look for wings

I understand that a lot of people can't be bothered to learn advanced solving techniques because they're more casual about it or whatever, but I just don't understand people who say they "solved" a sudoku by forcing chains or guessing.

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, it's just something that bothers me.

A puzzle exists in one of two states: solved and unsolved. When the correct numbers are filled in, the puzzle is solved and someone has solved it. Method matters not. If it bugs you that people guess, then don't guess yourself. I don't really see the difference.

I don't get bothered when people say they guessed. I never did it before today and I don't feel any worse for having done it. I get more bothered when people look down on others who use greens or guesses or other "lower" methods. This is supposed to be fun. We don't need an oversight committe.

e

I could use X wing but I prefer not to mark greens and solve sudoku completely without them. I don't think that using forcing chains = guessing, especially if there is no markings

I've gotten good at finding X wings without greens. I still don't really get XY so can't claim that one yet... I find I need a few greens on mediums and almost always on hards. One day, I may not. We'll see... depends on how obsessed I become...

someday i'll solve it without greens but I'm not there yet.....

The point is all sudoku can be solved without guessing or forcing the puzzle. Have we lost interest in the fun of actually finding which number goes where and obsess over simply completing the grid now?

I haven't. Maybe others have. But that's not my business. I guess all I am saying is live and let live. Or solve and let solve :)

I can understand people who don't use greens. I tend to shy away from them myself on lower-level puzzles, but on most experts the solving technique requires them, or a very good memory.

I used to use greens on all puzzles but then I tried not to use them on mediums and found it much easier than one would expected... So I started using greens much less and very quickly stopped using them nearly ever

I still need them on medium and up. Well. not all mediums.

bye.have a nice day everybody

later!

how about "live and let live" who wants to use greens, let them. who wants to guess, let them. It matters not what others do, really, and I can't see enforcing my own methods, ethics or anything else on anyone here. this is a game!

For fun, trying no greens on an easy from last year... GO

I already made the live and let live point just a bit down :)

How about letting other people express a point of view without trying to turn it into an attack.

Seriously.

Your point of view was rather confrontational in its original expression. Not that it felt like an attack on the person talking about chains but it was rather blunt.

point of view concerning feelings of superiority over others here, and lack of tolerance for them, can of course be expressed, but isn't very nice.. or necessary.

I'm sorry if you got that out of what I was saying, but I must say I think you have an inferiority complex if you did.

Nowhere did I in the least come close to even inferring that.

OrangeSlice
ProfileUnited States

Forcing chains is pointless. Why do you even try to solve it if you are only going to guess your way to the solution. That is not solving.

10:12 am
OrangeSlice
ProfileUnited States

I understand that a lot of people can't be bothered to learn advanced solving techniques because they're more casual about it or whatever, but I just don't understand people who say they "solved" a sudoku by forcing chains or guessing.

I fail to see where that expresses that I am 'better'

And believe me, if you actually knew me, you would know that I think quite the opposite of myself.

But I'm done talking.

Goodbye.

I was thinking of pointing out that it is "imply" not "infer" (below) but that reminded me of a funny t-shirt I saw recently: "I'm not pompous, I'm pedantic. There's a difference. Let me explain..." and then I started giggling. I'm a simple creature.

morning everyone

hiya

all greens entered

i got stuck sort of suddenly

just checked back in. andy, you're a funny guy.

I like Andy's T-shirt quote too

dorens, I read back a little in the log - sounds like a heated conversation!

it shouldn't have sounded as unpleasant as it was. i just have read more than once that sort of implication that others are lesser if they use greens, or guesses, and I think it's admirable that some of us are so much better at this, but I don't like seeing people feel put down if they're not as clever or quick, or whatever. If no putdown was implied, inferred or meant, so be it.

anyway, i'm going back to babble... enough of sudoku for the day.

I think I found a y-wing

nope

5 points! Expert done! Yeah Baby!

oh nice, i finally figured out how to use xy-wing

that clears out a big chunk of the puzzle quite quickly

and done!

another expert! two in a row! wow, maybe i'll get to practice my xy chain thing that i learned yesterday

How does it work? I'm not at that level yet.

i don't think you need to be at a particular "level" to understand it. this page has a couple good examples of how to use it: http://www.brainbashers.com/sudokuxywing.asp

Yes, in a sense, you do. I have tried to figure out different techniques for solving, but still use basic elimination. I'll try your site--thanks.

Basic elimination and a lucky guess. Done.

i couldn't get it from reading websites, but luckily there was an example in yesterday's puzzle and orange slice was here and walked me through it

Thanks. I looked at the site and the xz makes sense. I'll have to try it in another puzzle. Now it's gorgeous outside and I'm off. Luck all!

This is the first time I've really stopped by on weekends - are they usually harder than weekdays, or is it just my luck to get two experts this weekend? :D

just dumb-luck...

or expert luck, as it were

there probably is an xy chain here... i wish OS were here to tell me where...

I didn't find any XYs. One I thought was an XY wasn't. I don' think today's has any. Though, I'm hardly the authority :)

There is.

maybe 1,4, 3,6, and 9,6?

yay you're here?

i mean !

But since it seems my method of logical elimination isn't valuable, I won't bother anyone with it.

is that right?

They need to be in the AB, BC, AC pattern.

huh, what?

i mean that in response to OS's comment.

No one ever said the methods are not valuable.

root cell is in the lower-right box, hursh.

ooh, wait, then maybe it is 9,1, 9,9, and 7, 6?

Wings and in the upper-right and lower-right boxes, and it removes a candidate from the upper-right which solves the XY chain.

It's the upper right that I thought was the one that could face elimination via the XY but I had it wrong. Turns out I triggered the chain all on my own :)

i think i've got it!!!

mine's all in the right side of the puzzle...

no, mine is not right

i don't think.

They can't all be aligned.

so i need to use 7,8 instead of 6, 7

no... oh bother, i thought i had it.

I think I found that xywing after hearing the tip - was already kind of looking in that area, just hadn't gotten down there - thanks OrangeSlice :D Let's see if this opens it up more

You'll see it eventually

tell me the correct cells, i think i need another run-through before i can get it on my own

R1C9 R8C9 and R7C8

I think that's where it was

no, R8C9 is filled already

you must mean 9,9

so i am looking at the right cells then i think.

I've done about 6 other puzzles since I solved today's, so I could be wrong.

how do you know which one is the "middle" again?

the one that can see both others... right.

The middle can see both wing cells. The wings can only individually see the middle.

if the middle is an 8, then that one is a 3. if it is a 7, then...no, that doesn't work

I just finished it and I think the xy wing I saw was

Middle at R9C9, wings at R7C8 and R1C9 or something around there

and that opened it right on up

yes that is what i am looking at

maybe i have not eliminated some possibles i should have in other cells

You need exactly two candidates in each cell.

The 3 was the Z if I recall, and so basically the right two columns lost any potentials 3s outside of those cells

oh yes

I think when I did that, R3C8 was candidates of 3,8 and it eliminated the 3, leaving only the 8, and that's where it all chained

if that is a 7, then that one is a 3

The XY technique is really neat.

wait, ack, i keep losing it

ok i think i got it

I am seriously tempted to sign up for pro so I can go back and poke at other puzzles now. Addiction! Arg! :D

I succumbed earlier this week :)

i wish i hadn't done them all so i could practice this on old experts

maybe on paper...

ok, i did get it.

it is like magic eye... i almost get it and then i lose it... lol... but i did get it eventually.

hooray for freedom from forcing chains!

Was kind of funny actually, when I first learned this technique I went back to a few experts I had been stuck on previously and managed to solve them all with it.

It seems to show up quite often in them

yes it seems like the one technique i was missing

i wonder if my mom knows about it

Now you get to learn the xyz-wing and the wxyz-wing :)

oh rats, i thought i was set

just kidding.

I've never had a puzzle where those were required.

How many checkpoints do you get to set per puzzle? Just one?

but you never know...

is it the same idea but with more numbers?

as many as you want brian

In fact I've never seen a wxyz-wing in the wild. I have used an xyz on occasion though.

Yeah it's pretty much the same idea.

but with... 3 numbers in 4 cells?

xyz-wing has one three-candidate cell as the root and 2 two-candidate cells as the wings, and can eliminate anything all 3 can see.

basically a naked triple, but not all lined up.

so, might have been able to use that instead of the xy today...

wxyz same idea with 4 candidates as the root

for cells 3,7, 7,7, and 7,8... i think...

but there are always 2 in the wing cells? or are there more in a wxyz

still 2.

ok

hmm, will try to keep that in mind

You would have something like 1234, 24, 14, 34.

The common number being 4, and a such for any value of the 4-candidate cell one of the wings would end up as 4, so anything they can all see can have 4 removed.

so there are four involved in a wxyz

but 3 in an xy or xyz?

same idea as xyz. basically a naked quad that's not lined up.

i mean 4 cells

so it is the number of cells for the number of values..

like the naked things

right

well, the spark of it is in my head, someday it will be a full-fledged flame

here is marty

One of the things I usually do on experts is look for relationships between empty cells like this, because you can almost always find something.

yes, i would imagine so

I think they should give a stipend of my referral fee to people like OrangeSlice, because that's why I'm going to sign up for pro now. :D

lol

erm, a stipend or a referral fee cut from my payment rather

i should clip their claws before marty accidentally gets me in the jugular

I'm always willing to help out if I've got the solution.

me too!

i go play set now

Of course, there's a couple that even I'm stuck on, so don't think I know everything :)

2 experts in a row?

go

done

pretty easy for expert

yeah, 2 fairly easy experts in a row

boom, done

der- what is your icon?

Two Experts in a row? Uh-oh. Don't like that.

Done. No problems at all. Only one guess though.

has anyone solved all cells but 25, like me. What next,, besides a guess/force??

I'm at 25 right now too -- I think the key might be an xy-wing, which orangeslice mentioned earlier in the chat, but I've got to look up exactly what that is

i would think it has something to do with all the 1/6 and 1/6/9 cells, but i can't do these yet unless i'm led through it :)

i read back through the log and that's not it, but i'm still stuck

ok, if anyone is still here who cares, you need to look at these three cells: R1C9, R7C8, and R9C9. Specifically, if a three is in one of those cells, it can't be in a different cell. (not one i mentioned)

Thanks LeslieAnn! I had to step away from the puzzle because I couldn't find the key and was getting frustrated. I've finally got it now.

xy-wings are harder to find than they are to implement, usually.