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Difficulty: Expert Wednesday, February 7, 2007

Not Completed Play This Puzzle

CHAT LOG for Wednesday, February 7, 2007

12:00 am
dahduke

RACE FOR FIRST ONE DONE
12:03 am
brittlefish.com

go
12:09 am
moe

done
12:09 am
moe

expert, seriously?
12:10 am
austinuu

totally
12:11 am
scerwup

too hard for me
12:12 am
raggedyandy3478

how ya doing michael?
12:12 am
TeaNCrackers

done
12:30 am
brittlefish.com

bedtime. must be missing something. this is a toughie.
12:54 am
dahduke

FINALLY
1:11 am
augurus

About time I caught that famous gremlin on the plane in the Twilight Zone.
1:15 am
WHB

Done
2:37 am
h

go
3:02 am
h

29 filled, but cant keep the pairs straight enough to finish it - aaargh - guess im going green now (manual)... sigh.
3:10 am
h

ok, either im missing something (noticed a hidden pair) else, or i will have to use a forcing-chain (guess)... so here-goes...
3:12 am
h

forced-out, now to confirm...
3:17 am
Moozey

I am up to 29 filled but will need to start using greens as I need to have a shower soon
3:19 am
h

interesting - that single-force hasnt completely solved it - need another force/guess... sigh... uh, 22 left i guess.
3:21 am
Moozey

done have a good day all
3:21 am
h

another block/force - back-tracking/checking...
3:22 am
h

good job moozey. id suggest NOT choosing top-right block for force-chain...
3:23 am
h

blocked again, now to check final...
3:25 am
h

damn - im completely blocked! mustve screwed up... i think im either starting over or giving up... sigh.
4:03 am
h

i used autofill, and eliminated, and am back to the same (i think) 29 filled - with forcing-chain required... huh.
4:03 am
sprite

you don't give up, h, you start over :)
4:03 am
sprite

is it very stupid to ask what 'forcing-chain' is?
4:04 am
h

yeah - im a bit of a stubborn-cuss... :)
4:04 am
sprite

love you for that, lol - I know the feeling
4:07 am
h

ok - tried a different guess/force and it all worked out. yeah... (well, i used reds - and now im just going to fill-in... can call it done now - that took awhile. suggest using the center-block for the force/guess...
4:08 am
h

good luck sprite! :)
4:08 am
sprite

ah, it is another word for guessing :D
Thanks, will struggle on for a while longer
4:09 am
h

5 points - gotta go for it! :)
4:09 am
Jencatd

Yay, finished.
4:09 am
sprite

I could never resist a challenge, sigh... will finish :)
4:12 am
sprite

yay Jen
4:12 am
h

yeah - the difference between a guess and a force (for me) is that i do it in-the-greens (with a red) and look for a block. if blocked, im forced to go back and it usually works out - since im a freebie - i cant use checkpoints! go get em sprite! to bed now... congrats jen!
4:12 am
sprite

night h!
4:13 am
h

:)
4:46 am
MrOoijer

hurray, solved it without any guessing!
4:48 am
sprite

yay MrLandgenoot :)
5:03 am
spreadeagle

29 filled in. Just cruising along. Hit the wall.
5:07 am
NonoNanette

done! have had more problems with some of the 'easy' puzzles
5:12 am
spreadeagle

Good for you Nooner, I must be blind today....
5:18 am
irv

just pasted the wall...done
5:20 am
spreadeagle

Done. Had to guess once. Darn.
6:15 am
eyeman

ok. time to start.
6:34 am
eyeman

whew, did it with one green guess. "ogg" puzzle.
6:35 am
spreadeagle

"ogg"?
6:35 am
spreadeagle

One good guess? Oh good god?
6:36 am
eyeman

Hi spreadeagle. I was thinking one green guess, but oh good god works, too. Thanks
6:37 am
eyeman

Who knows? Someday "ogger" might work in babble - someone who makes green guesses.
6:38 am
spreadeagle

I like it!
6:38 am
eyeman

In fact, many of us are probably oggers.
6:40 am
eyeman

Well, gotta head out - car needs an oil change and I need a newspaper. Back later. Have a good day.
6:40 am
spreadeagle

That's better than being an "obgger".
6:40 am
eyeman

obgger? b=blind?
6:41 am
spreadeagle

Yeah, or b=bad.
6:42 am
eyeman

gotcha!
6:56 am
peternl

hi all
7:11 am
chebuctonian

hola
7:25 am
brittlefish.com

go (again)
7:27 am
babsmgl

is this one doable without guessing?
7:31 am
spreadeagle

not for me, i had to make one guess after filling in 29 cells
7:35 am
brittlefish.com

yeah, at 29
7:38 am
brittlefish.com

okay, one guess got it. done.
7:48 am
Moozey

I didn't need to guess babsmgl
7:52 am
Moozey

I struggled with yesterdays medium more than this one. Godd luck all.
7:52 am
Moozey

Good luck
8:22 am
brittlefish.com

anyone know if the javascript autofill works in IE? firefox works fine, but i can't seem to get it to work in IE.
8:22 am
spreadeagle

it works for me
8:23 am
brittlefish.com

IE6 or IE7?
8:26 am
spreadeagle

I think 7 but i'm not sure
8:28 am
brittlefish.com

Interesting.
8:32 am
spreadeagle

It is IE7. To make it work, first open the puzzle, then paste the javascript in the address line and press go (green arrow)
8:32 am
mumeishi

Ok. Yes, I understand, and it works great for me in Firefox. However, I'm trying to get it to work with IE6.
8:33 am
spreadeagle

Let me see if I have 6 on another computer and I will let you know.
8:34 am
smooth_pappa

go
8:38 am
spreadeagle

Sorry, all I have is 7 around here
8:39 am
smooth_pappa

ok...totally using the greenies today
8:41 am
smooth_pappa

nearly there
8:42 am
spreadeagle

Hey smoothie - the fun doesn't start 'til you get 29 filled in
8:42 am
smooth_pappa

I've only got 12 to go
8:43 am
smooth_pappa

oh crap... I take that back. lol
8:48 am
smooth_pappa

ok... had to redo... but I think I'm going better now
8:51 am
yul

hello everybody
8:52 am
smooth_pappa

hi yul
8:53 am
smooth_pappa

DONE!
9:03 am
hokie carla

I had to make one guess towards the end, but it wasn't too bad.
9:03 am
Zoor

Done!!!! NOTTTT
9:04 am
ypsigirl

gulp! expert! ooh I'm scared... diving in...
9:07 am
hurshy

oh yeah? mr. expert puzzle? you think you're so tough, don't you? what're you gonna do, huh? you think you can take me? you're all oooh, look at me, i'm an expert. but i'll knock you sideways so hard you won't know if your socks are on.
9:07 am
hurshy

THAT's the kind of sudoku attitude you need.
9:18 am
bangping

I can't say that I've ever heard anyone trash-talk a Sudoku puzzle before.... ;)
9:18 am
yul

That was an easy expert. tata
9:19 am
hurshy

what can i say? you can't let 'em intimidate you
9:21 am
yul

:) especially if there's a huge amount of pairs
9:21 am
hurshy

my cat is lying on a damp towel. why would she do this?
9:22 am
yul

cat's hot
9:22 am
hurshy

it's winter!
9:23 am
bangping

My guess is the dampness gets even warmer than a dry towel while she's lying on it
9:23 am
bangping

SHe'll just be a chilly kitty when she gets up
9:23 am
hurshy

silly mitt.
9:24 am
bangping

Or possibly..... you just have a weird cat. ;)
9:24 am
hurshy

and she's not even the weirdest of the 3! lol
9:27 am
UnikeTheHunter

Expert? Oh, no. This may take some time.
9:30 am
UnikeTheHunter

I got nothing done before I have to put in greens.
9:33 am
hurshy

not bad, not bad a-tall. not too many greens, and then just a smidge of a forcing chain.
9:58 am
bunnyvicious

go
10:10 am
bunnyvicious

doner
10:15 am
torgone

Quick work, bun ..
10:21 am
brittlefish.com

If anyone wants to give this a shot, I've posted some scripts online. In particular, see what you think of the "Retasking the Reds" script. It uses reds to indicate two (or one) possibilities for a number in a 3x3 (and greens for 3 or more). brittlefish.com/2007/02/07/make-ironsudoku-ja
vascript-magic
10:33 am
DDgood

Hey you guys I'm new here but you can call me DDgood.
10:36 am
brittlefish.com

howdy
11:45 am
drwho

Difficulty score 60. Hmm... no green. I error in logic which lead to a dead end, so I tried the other possibility and voila.
11:51 am
mzhokie

got it with one guess
12:00 pm
redshoes

crud... expert. I don't wanna.
12:12 pm
torgone

SHOES!
12:20 pm
redshoes

GONE!
12:23 pm
mamabear

hmmmm........
12:32 pm
redshoes

gah. my head is starting to hurt.
12:32 pm
redshoes

=P
12:38 pm
torgone

Gets a bit tricky at the end . .
12:40 pm
mamabear

only if you get there
12:43 pm
mamabear

something is wrong... this is going to well... waiting for the other shoe to fall
12:44 pm
Andy

so far so good... not timing myself on this one...
12:44 pm
redshoes

*holds on to red shoes tightly* no, they're mine, you can't have them! they won't fall!
12:45 pm
mamabear

oh would never take yours, red!!!! no worries...
12:46 pm
mamabear

ok I think I got to the tricky part at the end that Mr. Gone warned about
12:46 pm
redshoes

yay! kept my shoes AND finished. Just required a little leap of faith, I guess.
12:47 pm
redshoes

off to Babble. =)
12:47 pm
mamabear

good job shoes!
12:55 pm
torgone

"leap of faith" . ."forcing string" . ."guess" . ..
1:03 pm
Andy

got it... no guessing needed. Lots of naked pairs and triplets which reduced to give me the answers
1:08 pm
Leigh

woo! done. I think I finished this one faster than yesterday's 'easy" puzzle.
1:09 pm
miller da killer

no!!!! an expert on my second day back???
1:17 pm
miller da killer

maybe it's beginners luck but this seems a little easier than an expert
1:18 pm
miller da killer

dang it just lost all my work.
1:23 pm
Leigh

yeah, the difficulty ratings are a bit messed up. they seem rather arbitrary to me.
1:24 pm
Leigh

I finished this one faster than yesterday's "easy" puzzle.
1:24 pm
miller da killer

it has something to do with the number of techniques you need to solve them...i think
1:25 pm
drwho

As far as I can tell, the rating is based on the most advanced technique needed to solve the puzzle.
1:25 pm
miller da killer

yeah that's what it is
1:25 pm
miller da killer

most advanced technique? GUESSING???
1:25 pm
miller da killer

just joking
1:25 pm
Leigh

hmm, I don't really use techniques. at least, not that i know of.
1:25 pm
Pickled

lol
1:25 pm
Leigh

i just kind of systematically figure it out. I use the greens, too.
1:26 pm
miller da killer

me too
1:26 pm
patgas

anybody ever try rating all of the puzzles in the archives and ranking them on difficulty?
1:26 pm
drwho

You do use technique, you just haven't identified and named them.
1:26 pm
miller da killer

yeah i know
1:27 pm
drwho

Yes patgas, I have been putting a difficulty score into the chat log *almost* every day from when I first discovered this site.
1:28 pm
patgas

i noticed that. do you have a solver that gives you that score?
1:29 pm
drwho

I wrote a program that solves and rates the puzzles. My score is an attempt to quantify the amount of time it will take to solve, not the absolute hardest technique used.
1:30 pm
Leigh

and how did your program rate yesterday's and today's, out of curiosity?
1:30 pm
patgas

what are the chances of having your program crawl through the archives and compiling a list of the rating for every puzzle?
1:31 pm
drwho

Today
1:31 pm
drwho

60
1:31 pm
patgas

i would rather work through the archives in that way rather than stabbing randomly at them.
1:31 pm
drwho

Yesterday 16.
1:32 pm
Leigh

lol
1:32 pm
Leigh

guess I'm just a freak, then <g>.
1:33 pm
drwho

If I have time I may go through the archives and compile ratings. I am currently compiling ratings and times for those who say "go" ... "done" to see how well the score and times correlate.
1:35 pm
patgas

oh, interesting. are you scraping the chat logs or doing it by hand?
1:35 pm
drwho

Doing it by hand.
1:36 pm
Leigh

You are one hardcore sudoku-er, Dr. Who.
1:37 pm
drwho

I was more interested in the programming challenge at first.
1:38 pm
patgas

yeah, i have a few half-formed programs i've been kicking around. i can sympathize.
1:40 pm
Leigh

i took a year of CS in college. I thought about majoring in it, but then they made us do Java.
1:41 pm
Leigh

ended up majoring in Russian and Political Science <g>.
1:41 pm
patgas

i've gone from CS to math to physics. but i'm a slow roller.
1:41 pm
drwho

That's an alarming combination.
1:42 pm
Leigh

Indeed. I got a lot of Condolezza Rice jokes. But now I'm in law school, and I play sudoku and babble during class (like right now).
1:45 pm
snppngtrtle

I think sudoku is the only thing that makes civ pro and torts tolerable
1:46 pm
Leigh

i agree
1:47 pm
Leigh

torts can be amusing, if you don't take it too seriously
1:47 pm
Leigh

Lansing is at the very least finny.
1:47 pm
sinnergy

I think tortes are delicious.
1:47 pm
snppngtrtle

That's true
1:48 pm
snppngtrtle

And tortes are delicious!
1:48 pm
snppngtrtle

I much prefer the one with the "e"
1:48 pm
Leigh

mmmm, tortes
1:48 pm
Leigh

me too.
1:48 pm
sinnergy

cheaper, too.
1:48 pm
Leigh

decidedly so, sinnergy. And more chocolatey, usually.
1:49 pm
Leigh

i was going to bring pie to torts one day, but snppngtrtle convinced me to skip class. not that it took much.
1:49 pm
snppngtrtle

And less frivilous - empty calories are much better than empty threats
1:49 pm
sinnergy

anyway, I digress. ;) Enjoy the freetime now ;)
1:50 pm
Leigh

well, civ pro is over, so I'm off. Later sudoku folks.
1:53 pm
spellacked

go - ack an Expert?
3:02 pm
Zugzug7

got it! And only had to print it three times. :)
4:28 pm
Linda

I thought it was quite easy for an expert - i didn't need to do any guessing at all.
4:39 pm
1MoreGame

not to bad for an expert. I think it should be a medium.
5:12 pm
brianarn

First shot at an expert, I think -- definitely not doing so well. :D
6:28 pm
helenkeller

go
6:39 pm
artlady

ok
6:44 pm
Krys10

unique rectangles in this one! my favorite!
6:46 pm
helenkeller

done
6:47 pm
helenkeller

that was not hard at all - or else i'm simply brilliant, LOL
6:47 pm
artlady

you're brilliant
6:51 pm
Krys10

quite a ride! two different types of unique rectangles and an xy-wing.
6:56 pm
helenkeller

lol artlady - tx, but i don't think so - i have no idea what an x-wing is (other than a stars wars space ship) or a unique rectangle either
6:57 pm
artlady

ditto
6:57 pm
helenkeller

going to babble now -good bye & good luck
6:57 pm
artlady

thank you and good luck
6:59 pm
OrangeSlice

hm, took me about a half hour. I thought I was better at these.
7:23 pm
dorens

wow--- one guess and a lot of luck
7:26 pm
mumeishi

stuck at 29
7:35 pm
h

29 is the spot where a forcing-chain from the center-block solves it. good luck.
7:42 pm
Minski

Done! Not too difficult. Only had to guess twice.
7:42 pm
spreadeagle

force from the bottom right works also
7:44 pm
mumeishi

thx. how do you know which cell ends your chain? or do you simply stumble into a good target?
7:46 pm
spreadeagle

Stumble away. Get a checkpoint and try it. If you hit a wall or hit an impossibility, start over with a different force (guess)
7:50 pm
spreadeagle

I do try to look ahead several "moves" in different cells to decide if I should guess a "1" or a "2" or whatever in a given cell. I seem to get it right about 50% of the time.
7:52 pm
mumeishi

okay. i was afraid of that. :) i found one but one side of it seems too long. maybe it just takes more practice
7:52 pm
mumeishi

done
7:52 pm
mumeishi

thanks
7:53 pm
spreadeagle

I wish I knew. Some people said they solved today's puzzle without guessing and I don't see how. But I'm not an "expert", yet.
8:09 pm
spreadeagle

wow, things sure got quiet all of a sudden.........
8:11 pm
spreadeagle

Did I say something wrong???
8:14 pm
spreadeagle

Should I say I'm sorry??
8:14 pm
spreadeagle

I'm sorry. Really. I mean it.
8:21 pm
Jencatd

Don't worry about it. Some of the people who were chatting before may be concentrating on puzzles from the Archives. I know I am. :)
8:24 pm
spreadeagle

True, I am too. I finished today's puzzle about 15 hours ago. But the earlier discussion seemed to be about today's puzzle and what happened after 29 cells were filled in.
8:26 pm
Jencatd

That was probably about the point where I got stuck last night. Checkpoints are the way to go at those points.
8:27 pm
spreadeagle

I agree. Then it's just trial and error.
8:28 pm
Jencatd

Definitely.
8:51 pm
mumeishi

sorry spread. too many distractions. thanks for the help with forcing the chain (you too, h). as for checkpoints, some of us have to improvise. screenshot == poor mans checkpoint :)
8:52 pm
spreadeagle

I understand.
9:14 pm
Jencatd

Fair enough.
10:36 pm
h

sorry about the silence spreadeagle, i walk away from the confuser for long-stretches and dont close-down the browser... no offense intended by my (or other folks?) silence...
11:21 pm
JustMe

ouch! i was down to my last two squares when i realized it wouldn't work! yuck!
11:22 pm
davekingpt

Just Me, I just did the same thing. Yuck is right
11:22 pm
JustMe

and now i have to rush to get it down before the flip!
11:22 pm
JustMe

done that is
11:23 pm
davekingpt

Sometimes the greens get in my way. Too much information
11:24 pm
JustMe

what do you mean "greens"?
11:25 pm
davekingpt

You can enter numbers you think might work in a square by pressing the shift key and then enterring the number
11:25 pm
JustMe

ohhhh. i guess it would help to read the directions! what a nifty tool.
11:26 pm
davekingpt

Same with eliminating a number. You can enter a red number by using the alt key
11:26 pm
JustMe

that would have come in handy the first time i tried!
11:27 pm
davekingpt

ci
11:30 pm
davekingpt

I'm going to do something brazen.
11:30 pm
JustMe

and what would that be?
11:30 pm
davekingpt

Something that strikes fear in the hearts of many soduko players.
11:31 pm
JustMe

uh-oh
11:31 pm
davekingpt

I'm going to walk away from an unfinished puzzle and get a good night's sleep.
11:31 pm
JustMe

should i cover my eyes?
11:31 pm
davekingpt

No, I
11:31 pm
JustMe

lol. good night then dave. sleep well!
11:31 pm
davekingpt

No, I'll be coverring mine
11:32 pm
davekingpt

good luck and good night