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Difficulty: Expert Tuesday, March 28, 2006

Not Completed Play This Puzzle

CHAT LOG for Tuesday, March 28, 2006

12:03 am
sellout

Oh boy, expert...
12:03 am
Debs40ish

morning all
12:03 am
scottru

expert. oy.
12:04 am
Zinky

is expert the toughest it goes?
12:04 am
Debs40ish

dunno
12:04 am
sellout

Yeah I think so
12:04 am
corey

morning this looks fun
12:06 am
Zinky

hey girly
12:09 am
scottru

place one number, woo hoo
12:10 am
flarfu

i didn't even know there was expert puzzles
12:18 am
scottru

ok. now i'm stuck, and i'm too tired to find a swordfish or something like that.
12:19 am
blades

Wow. That one was easier for me than the mediums.
12:20 am
scottru

good for you. i'm just sitting here.
12:23 am
Playwoman

me,too
12:23 am
Babe

you guys suck
12:24 am
scottru

thanks, babe, that's kind of you.
12:24 am
Babe

you are very welcome.
12:24 am
scottru

congrats on solving it so quickly.
12:30 am
Bubbles

how nice this time of the morning
12:35 am
Playwoman

What time is it where you are, Bubbles?
12:36 am
Bubbles

7.39am in england. What about you?
12:36 am
Playwoman

10:30PM here in California
12:37 am
guerro

eek expert yikes
12:37 am
Bubbles

i love california
12:38 am
Playwoman

Thanks. I like it here, too, but I love england, too.
12:39 am
Bubbles

its too cold here
12:40 am
Playwoman

Have you lived in England all of our life?
12:41 am
Bubbles

yep, 22 years to be exact!!!
12:41 am
Bubbles

well 22 years 10 months and something!!!
12:42 am
Playwoman

We've warmed up to highs in the 60s (F), but rain is coming by morning
12:43 am
Bubbles

wow. Its been extremely cold here, its just started to get slightly warmer but a few weeks ago it was going down to about -1
12:44 am
Playwoman

I cannot imagine wht that most be like
12:45 am
GingerUK

Morning everyone
12:45 am
Bubbles

stay in bed weather!!!!
12:45 am
Bubbles

Morning ginger
12:46 am
GingerUK

this one looks harder today...
12:46 am
Playwoman

Morning ginger. Night, all. I'll take another look at the puzzle in the AM
12:46 am
Bubbles

night
12:59 am
GingerUK

are there ANY obvious numbers on this one??? If there is I can't see them!
1:00 am
jonathanpoh

'expert'? eep.
1:04 am
stane

coming...work work
1:04 am
stane

my first expert...
1:05 am
GingerUK

it looks like this is going to be a lot of guessing
1:17 am
Pnikosis

Mi first all time :-/
1:18 am
stane

it is really an expert...
1:27 am
sellout

Huh. I guessed on one part and the whole thing came tumbling down. Awesome.
1:30 am
sprite

Wow, an expert again. Let's have fun ;)
1:31 am
polytriks

Anyone able to do this one without guessing? I think guessing is kinda weak and defeats the purpose of a puzzle.
1:31 am
sprite

I think everyone should play as he/she sees fit. I never guess, my fun is in reasoning the thing out.
1:32 am
polytriks

of course, just my opinion :)
1:32 am
sprite

But I don't mind other people guessing ;)
1:33 am
polytriks

I just think u r going to be disappointed on this one sprite. I think logic alone will not solve it
1:33 am
sprite

If that is true, it is not a good sudoku. A good one can be solved using logic, right?
1:33 am
polytriks

that's my point ;)
1:36 am
balker

yeah, there's no way around guessing a step in this one, which sucks
1:37 am
sprite

It's not like Jamie to present us with a weak puzzle. Am doing fine so far, hope I will complete without guessing :)
1:38 am
polytriks

hope so too, so you can share your technique!
1:40 am
Pnikosis

My brain hirts
1:40 am
Pnikosis

hurts
1:41 am
sprite

That much eh :)
1:41 am
RoboLaserBear

you should try a bleeding. that's supposed to be good for headaches.
1:41 am
RoboLaserBear

it balances out your humours.
1:41 am
Pnikosis

well, my nose is actually bleeding, I can't stand the pressure :o
1:42 am
sprite

Am stuck now :(
1:42 am
RoboLaserBear

that means you have a strong immune system, and it's correcting the problem itself.
1:43 am
polytriks

sprite - how many remaining?
1:43 am
sprite

Not even halfway
1:43 am
polytriks

51?
1:43 am
sprite

lol!
1:44 am
sprite

Haven't counted actually. But stuck very early, yes.
1:46 am
polytriks

finished! - brute forced it though. Good luck all.
1:47 am
Pnikosis

grats
1:47 am
NickCerda

Uh oh expert this one must be hard, huh?
1:48 am
sprite

Guess the question is: to guess or not to guess? Probably one or two guesses would finish the darn thing, but is it still fun then?
1:48 am
sprite

On the other hand, I hate to leave a grid unfinished :(
1:50 am
RoboLaserBear

I think it depends on how stubborn you are, sprite
1:50 am
sprite

Oh my. That's bad. That's very bad :)
1:53 am
sprite

Am stubborn. But also susceptible to temptation. I'll finish the thing.
1:54 am
Atalante

uh oh expert. am not an expert!!
1:55 am
sprite

Atalante, in this case "expert" means "you must guess to solve this". Not too much fun :(
1:55 am
Grendel

you should be able to find the 4 in the bottom set easily
1:55 am
Atalante

urf :( and I was really looking forward to this - I've been having babble and sudoku withdrawal symptoms over the weekend!
1:56 am
Grendel

after that it gets hard
1:56 am
sprite

A 4 and a 3, and then it gets obscure.
1:56 am
Grendel

yea
1:56 am
Grendel

just noticed the 3 myself
1:56 am
sprite

:)
1:56 am
Phox

no spoilers please
1:56 am
iLuke

if by "obscure" you mean "invisible" -- i'd say you're right.
1:57 am
iLuke

lol
1:57 am
sprite

Lol!
1:57 am
Texel

I like experts... they give you a chance to flex your advanced solving skills
1:58 am
sprite

Yeah, if they work. So far no luck here.
1:58 am
iLuke

@texel: that's like saying "I like to bench press 300lbs, it builds endurance" -- but that presumes the ability to bench 100 was once there. hehe
1:59 am
iLuke

oi ve, me, a pessimist? never. *puts on his thinking cap and gets back to the work at hand*
1:59 am
Grendel

use the markers, thats what they are there for.
1:59 am
Grendel

and dont forget to erase markers when appropriate
2:00 am
NickCerda

?
2:00 am
sprite

That much I know...
2:01 am
Atalante

ah well, I'll have a go and be equally stubborn ...
2:02 am
sprite

:)
2:03 am
sprite

That's why we get along so well.
I am almost done now, but guessed twice. I wonder if I need more skills, or if this one can only be solved by trial and error once or twice.
2:05 am
Atalante

I thought all sudoku's were solvable without guesses ..? But I suppose it depends on how you define a guess. Intuition works wonderfully sometimes!
2:05 am
sprite

Lol, that's true... guessing right the first time could be considered brilliance or a great intuition.
2:06 am
Atalante

lol yes!
2:07 am
moedog

oh great... my first "expert" puzzle. :-/
2:08 am
morgan

morning
2:09 am
trioptimum

g'morning, experts
2:12 am
RobG

hmm
2:14 am
RobG

ooh, i found my first number :)
2:14 am
Pnikosis

mornin
2:17 am
trioptimum

hmm even green numbers aren't helping me much here
2:17 am
moedog

i filled in one number before i had to start painting the world green
2:18 am
lawfully

I've got two
2:18 am
moedog

braggart :)
2:18 am
morgan

mee too,moedog. but now i got a second one
2:18 am
boric

managed two as well. a 3 and a 4
2:18 am
moedog

ooh, you're right - me too.
2:18 am
lawfully

yup, a 3 and a 4
2:18 am
moedog

sorry
2:18 am
morgan

yeah me too
2:19 am
NickCerda

I think it is imposible without guessing
2:19 am
RobG

shouldn't be
2:20 am
lawfully

time to guess?
2:20 am
RobG

you never need to guess
2:20 am
boric

well, you shouldn't need to guess, but I understand why people feel the need to.
2:21 am
trioptimum

you do sometimes need to look ahead, though, don't you?
2:21 am
trioptimum

to try a branch
2:21 am
RobG

yes, you always need to do that
2:21 am
morgan

every time i thought i had to guess, i found the single number just a few minutes later
2:23 am
RobG

ok, i now have masses of green numbers on my screen
2:24 am
Grendel

i have all but 3 squares filled with markers :P
2:25 am
trioptimum

hmm been over every row, column and square, and still only the first 2 numbers filled in
2:26 am
Pnikosis

My grid looks like a christmas tree (all green and red)
2:26 am
boric

you use read AND green? Do you find it helps? I only use green.
2:27 am
trioptimum

I sometimes go over the whole thing again filling in the reds to double check I haven't made a mistake with the greens.
2:27 am
Infininight

yeah, seems to me if you do all the green numbers red is redundant
2:27 am
DaveMan

tri -- i'm like you. only 2 numbers in, and it's been 20 mins starting at this. sigh
2:28 am
Pnikosis

nope, because I'm only tracking 4 numbers
2:28 am
trioptimum

yeah, this is where I throw away all my delusions of sudoku expertise
2:28 am
Pnikosis

and marking where they can be, and where don't
2:28 am
Pnikosis

can't
2:29 am
NickCerda

woohoo done
2:30 am
sprite

Morgan, do you mean you can reason this thing out, using logic not guessing?
2:33 am
RobG

i wish my red numbers worked
2:33 am
trioptimum

how would you like them to work?
2:34 am
boric

perhaps if they were purple?
2:34 am
Infininight

red/green colorblind I'm guessing?
2:36 am
Grendel

yay, got it
2:36 am
Grendel

and i've never had red markers work, i'm guessing one of the extensions i've got installed is messing it up.
2:37 am
trioptimum

you and RobG should compare your list of installed extensions or something
2:37 am
trioptimum

would be nice to know which one's breaking it
2:39 am
Grendel

robg: you using alt to mark reds right?
2:40 am
Grendel

i think i might have been trying to use ctrl or something.
2:40 am
Grendel

i'll have to see tomorrow when the next puzzle comes out
2:49 am
Infininight

::is -> <- this close to guessing::
2:50 am
trioptimum

I resorted to guessing a while ago
2:50 am
trioptimum

at least the checkpoints make it easy to revert when a guess was wrong
2:50 am
Infininight

I've got a lot of boxes down to two possibles, just can't make the leap past that
2:52 am
boric

same here. starting to annoy me.
3:08 am
Infininight

::bangs head on table::
3:09 am
lawfully

I guess correct guess never carries me far enough...
3:10 am
Infininight

I guess last night once, and entered about 25 numbers after, got down to four before it proved wrong
3:22 am
antichaos

test
3:25 am
jonathanpoh

i wonder if Vulcans play sudoku
3:25 am
sprite

They invented it, for sure.
3:26 am
jonathanpoh

LOL
3:26 am
Infininight

I think it's obvious that Spock wrote this one personally
3:26 am
trioptimum

yes, as an exercise in focus to distract themselves from pon farr
3:27 am
antichaos

who is this Spock you were talking about?
3:27 am
jonathanpoh

hehehe.. for sure
3:27 am
jonathanpoh

this is doing my head in
3:29 am
Infininight

need to email the creator of this site... he needs to get Tylenol as a sponsor
3:33 am
antichaos

one only puzzle everyday?
3:33 am
MrOoijer

this one is too hard for me
3:34 am
Infininight

anti: aye
3:34 am
antichaos

i've solved it
3:34 am
MrOoijer

only two boxes filled in and i am already stuck
3:34 am
Infininight

then rest your eyes until tomorrow :)
3:34 am
antichaos

k :)
3:35 am
MrOoijer

it is morning here :-)
3:36 am
jonathanpoh

i get a backache more than a headache playing this
3:36 am
jonathanpoh

hunched over staring at the numbers trying to figure it out
3:37 am
antichaos

j, you should try something else to play
3:37 am
jonathanpoh

LOL
3:38 am
antichaos

sudoku is too mathmatical to be fun, i suppose.
3:39 am
stane

done....huuuuuuuuu...
3:39 am
morgan

it's only logic, no maths. you get sodoku puzzles with literals too
3:39 am
jonathanpoh

>start over< *sigh*
3:40 am
stane

it's really hard
3:40 am
stane

but CONGRATULATIONS! at last^_^
3:40 am
stane

i shall take a rest...
3:43 am
morgan

this puzzle is nasty
3:43 am
antichaos

do you guys know what the icon of ironsudoku mean?
3:43 am
antichaos

i agree, morgan.
3:44 am
jonathanpoh

the fan? or the chinese/kanji character in the address bar?
3:45 am
antichaos

the chinese character
3:45 am
antichaos

iron?
3:45 am
jonathanpoh

yeah it is 'iron'
3:46 am
boric

done. only 5 points for that monster? hmph.
3:47 am
antichaos

shameless plug for my friend: http://linez.varten.net/
3:48 am
antichaos

it's an addictive puzzle game
3:48 am
antichaos

my rank is 17 right now :)
3:49 am
antichaos

no registration required.
3:50 am
haggis10

It's the Chinese plan for wolrd domination - with every on their pc's playing Sudoku it will be easy to take over the world
3:50 am
antichaos

sudoku is not a chinese game.
3:51 am
haggis10

Thought it was a chinese guy who released it.
3:52 am
antichaos

really? i thought it was a japanese.
3:52 am
haggis10

though a version of an old Egyptian style of number game - could have been a japanese.
3:53 am
Infininight

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudoku
3:53 am
Infininight

sounds... US?
3:53 am
haggis10

either way world dominaation through sudoku is the way to go as every one seems to be playing one form or another
3:53 am
antichaos

lol. indeed.
4:06 am
Kellie

Hi Bubbles, how you getting on? is it a toughy?
4:13 am
Bubbles

can't you hear me screaming?
4:29 am
bex777

this is annoying me soooooo much
4:38 am
trioptimum

/me gives up.
4:50 am
Bubbles

how's it going kels?
5:02 am
Kellie

just having another look now.. not too sure where to start
5:10 am
rjan_de

is "expert" harder than "hard"?
5:10 am
wwd

naturlich
5:11 am
rjan_de

ah, danke ;-)
5:11 am
wwd

kein problem
5:14 am
M3

is there any point in me even trying to do today's? i i gave on yesterdays 6 times !!1
5:14 am
wwd

just keep trying
5:15 am
wwd

you'll get it eventually
5:15 am
wwd

something will *click*
5:17 am
M3

oh well here goes. wish me luck, im so going to need it!
5:17 am
wwd

good luck then
5:18 am
Kellie

Return!! Grrrr
5:18 am
M3

thanks lol
5:18 am
bex777

has anyone actually finished this?
5:19 am
M3

bex you are joking right!!!
5:21 am
Pnikosis

I think a couple did it
5:21 am
bex777

i have started over about 5 times
5:26 am
a

i've been down to 2 blanks for hours, so out of curiousity i entered this puzzle in a solver program and even that was stumped :O
5:27 am
Pnikosis

hahahaha
5:33 am
bex777

i had 5 boxes left to fill in and it went wrong
6:02 am
Lamancha

Finished - but only after making two aborted attempts - trial and error, not logic in the end....
6:10 am
Pnikosis

one column done
6:11 am
Pnikosis

but one guess...
6:27 am
MDidia

Hi - this is NOT a proper Sudoku puzzle today! You can not use LOGIC alone. I entered it into a verification program and it said the clues do not form a valid puzzle. What s the point if you just have to use trial and error? Anybody can do that!
6:31 am
peternl

hi all
6:31 am
peternl

hmm, expert?
6:31 am
Pnikosis

level: headache
6:33 am
bex777

i dont think i will finish this one today
6:36 am
Crys

I just joined...is there other levels?
6:37 am
chebuctonian

hi all :)
6:38 am
chebuctonian

MDidia - what solver did you use?
6:38 am
peternl

crys: yep, easy, med, hard, expert
6:38 am
peternl

but not until tomorrow
6:38 am
MDidia

I used the Pappocom Sudoku program.
6:39 am
MDidia

you can dub in a grid and it tells you if it's valid or not without giving you any clues about solving it.
6:39 am
chebuctonian

did you make sure you didn't miss a digit?
6:40 am
MDidia

Abolutely -- I checked it dozens of times!
6:40 am
chebuctonian

wild.
6:40 am
Crys

thanx peternl, just started playing a few weeks ago, don't really want to look foolish
6:40 am
chebuctonian

well, there's a bug somewhere- either in the generator for this site, or the solver
6:41 am
MDidia

I suspect it's the site rather than the solver because I just double check with "simple sodoku" and it too got stumped and couldn't provide any more hints.
6:42 am
chebuctonian

well, if we can solve it, we'll have a bug to report. otherwise, we'll have to write the site creators :)
6:43 am
MDidia

I
6:44 am
MDidia

oops, sorry, I was going to say, some people have solved it by trial and error, so that's what I'm about to attempt (though I need pencil and paper for that...
6:45 am
chebuctonian

you can "pencil in" numbers on the puzzle with the shift key
6:50 am
MDidia

Oh, I know that, but I also like to write the required numbers for each rows and columns on the edge/top of the grid, it helps me "see" it better.
6:51 am
MDidia

Anyway, gotta go now... bye.
6:53 am
morgan

yes, i do so too. it's clearer than filling every field with a crop of numbers
6:54 am
chebuctonian

wow, I've only gotten 2 so far... this is going to be a tough slog
6:55 am
miametro

expert? eep. don't think i'll even bother trying with this one today!
6:55 am
peternl

good plan
6:55 am
peternl

good plan
6:58 am
morgan

the basic difference between "easy" and "expert" is in the time you need for solving the puzzle. i solve an easy puzzle on my way to work (about 15 minutes on train), but for an expert one i would need at least two or three rides
6:59 am
chebuctonian

morgan- for beginners, no amount of time on this puzzle is going to help; they'll need more advanced solving strategies
7:01 am
morgan

@chebuctonian: that's right. i forgot about that.
7:03 am
chebuctonian

for us... it's more time :)
7:04 am
chebuctonian

unfortunately, I'm starting to think this one is in fact not solveable
7:04 am
chebuctonian

(see MDidia's comments below)
7:06 am
morgan

have a break. i started the puzzle at about 10am. now here its 3pm. and i just didn't solve it but after every break i found one or two numbers
7:07 am
chebuctonian

have you solved it yet?
7:07 am
raerae7133

I got a 3! woo!
7:10 am
morgan

no
7:10 am
chebuctonian

well, the solver I just used says it's not a valid puzzle either
7:11 am
morgan

we'll see (i thought about using a solver too, but i don't wanna loose the fun)
7:11 am
raerae7133

I'm gonna _earn_ my 5 points :D
7:11 am
hurshy

not a valid puzzle? uh-oh, i don't like to hear that
7:11 am
raerae7133

I was wondering when you'd show up, hurshy :)
7:12 am
hurshy

i been here, just quiet
7:13 am
raerae7133

So is my fiancee apparently.
7:13 am
hurshy

?
7:13 am
raerae7133

Rachel. It says she's online
7:13 am
hurshy

maybe she just left herself logged in
7:14 am
raerae7133

Possibly.
7:17 am
raerae7133

Well, that was annoying
7:17 am
hurshy

what?
7:17 am
raerae7133

I accidentally hit the back button on my fancy internet keyboard
7:17 am
hurshy

oops
7:17 am
chebuctonian

I just sent in a bug report
7:17 am
raerae7133

got rid of the 3 squares of greens I had done
7:17 am
hurshy

i have all my greens in
7:17 am
hurshy

i am afraid it does not look promising
7:17 am
raerae7133

how many numbers did you place before you went that way?
7:18 am
MonkeyRabbit

me too. not getting anywhere fast.
7:18 am
chebuctonian

before I tried a solver? only the 3
7:18 am
hurshy

i placed 2
7:18 am
MonkeyRabbit

i got a 3 and a 4
7:18 am
hurshy

a 3 and a 4
7:18 am
raerae7133

3 and 4?
7:18 am
raerae7133

yes
7:18 am
raerae7133

ok
7:18 am
chebuctonian

yeah, 4 is easy
7:20 am
David Mitchell

Expert. Uht-oh.
7:20 am
chebuctonian

hmm... my solver with a different setting says "solved it but had to guess (and there could be more than one solution)"
7:20 am
chebuctonian

:(
7:20 am
hurshy

lovely.
7:20 am
hurshy

i mean, |lovely
7:20 am
hurshy

my sister and i decided there should be a symbol for sarcasm
7:21 am
hurshy

we thought if you start with | that means sarcasm follows
7:21 am
raerae7133

I agree
7:21 am
raerae7133

Thanks for being a pioneer and providing us the sarcasm character
7:21 am
hurshy

yw
7:22 am
raerae7133

I'll pass it on to my children, and they'll pass it on to their children, and so forth
7:22 am
hurshy

an heirloom of sarcasm
7:22 am
raerae7133

Is there nothing more valuable?
7:22 am
hurshy

lol
7:22 am
raerae7133

Hmm, I wonder if that should've been preceded by a |
7:22 am
hurshy

just make sure rachel wants children before you make these grand plans
7:23 am
NJL

mmmm I've heard that this is a hard one
7:23 am
raerae7133

Will do. I won't get carried away :)
7:25 am
hurshy

hurshy sad
7:25 am
hurshy

invalid puzzle no fun
7:25 am
David Mitchell

Invalid?!
7:25 am
hurshy

this is what chebuc says
7:26 am
MonkeyRabbit

Still trying but it looks that way :(
7:26 am
bex777

what would happen if one day the puzzle was impossible?
7:26 am
hurshy

solver tells chebuc puzzle invalid, ie guessing required, more than one solution poss
7:26 am
hurshy

we would have to GUESS
7:26 am
hurshy

dirty word
7:26 am
raerae7133

the good guessers get points ;)
7:26 am
hurshy

alright, going to mark a trail now
7:27 am
David Mitchell

I was pretty happy with yesterday's puzzle; it went easily for me
7:27 am
Pnikosis

I hate this one
7:27 am
MonkeyRabbit

candidate cells are all straddling boxes so its impossible to eliminate any numbers with certainty
7:27 am
David Mitchell

Sounds like this is going to be bad
7:31 am
hurshy

even guessing doesn't get you far at a time
7:31 am
hurshy

ick
7:33 am
MonkeyRabbit

wow, finally managed to eliminate one green number. Doesn't help though...
7:33 am
David Mitchell

Half the possibilities marked..
7:33 am
MonkeyRabbit

should have used the sarcasm signal
7:33 am
hurshy

ugh, this is awful
7:33 am
David Mitchell

I'm going to eat breakfast
7:34 am
MDidia

Back! So, I did some tests and experiments with software and found that there is ONE number that can be added (but it can't be deduced logically, it would have to be guessed) to render the rest of the puzzle actually solvable by logic alone.
7:34 am
raerae7133

I'm going to eat breakfast AND shower.
7:34 am
Pnikosis

'bout time! ;-)
7:34 am
hurshy

tell us which, please, and save us big headaches
7:34 am
hurshy

pretty please with sugar on top
7:35 am
MDidia

I dunno, some pople might enjoy the trial and error (I personally don't...) I will say it's a 4.
7:35 am
hurshy

i don't either
7:35 am
hurshy

4 in which row
7:35 am
MonkeyRabbit

no clues please
7:35 am
hurshy

close the chatbox if you don't want it
7:36 am
hurshy

and then we'll post a bunch to get rid of it
7:36 am
Pnikosis

man no!
7:36 am
hurshy

just give us 2 minutes for those who want the clue
7:36 am
Pnikosis

send an email with the clues, but not in the chatbox
7:36 am
MDidia

Yeah... I'm not gonna give any more away.
7:36 am
raerae7133

Send a clue to sudoku@chipt.com :)
7:36 am
hurshy

you won't even SEND me the 4?
7:36 am
MonkeyRabbit

ok we should go get coffee
7:37 am
hurshy

forget it, i am too tired for this.
7:37 am
blad

lol what kind of clue is that.
7:37 am
Anj

Whoa! That was a beastie... : /
7:37 am
raerae7133

One that actually makes the puzzle solvable without guessing
7:37 am
MonkeyRabbit

i'm trying to give up smoking but this puzzle ruin my resolve
7:37 am
MDidia

Hang on a sec, I'll upload a clue to my webspace so anybody who wants to can see it -- saves me having to email folk.
7:38 am
bunnyvicious

Hey Anj, done? I haven't been here long...
7:38 am
hurshy

where is your webspace?
7:38 am
morgan

i get headache. this puzzle is a monster
7:39 am
Anj

Bunny, yup. Apart from the two numbers you can enter, my next move was a 50:50 guess and that nailed it : )
7:40 am
bunnyvicious

Good for you! Working on a guess right now, cross your fingers for me!
7:40 am
MDidia

Hang on... still uploading....
7:40 am
blad

yeah every cell got more than 2 possibilities, i got only 2 numbers that for sure
7:41 am
NJL

2 numbers makes it a very hard start
7:41 am
Anj

Fingers crossed BV : )
7:42 am
MDidia

Here you go - it tells you the number, row and column. http://www.classical-webdesigns.co.uk/sudoku.
html
7:42 am
blad

i did not know guessing was part of this game
7:43 am
MDidia

There could possibly be another number that enables it to be solved, but that's the FIRST one that worked for me.
7:43 am
blad

thanks, hopes it helps
7:43 am
AliMcsweet

good luck! I know I will need it when I return from school to try and get this one!
7:44 am
NJL

thanks for the tip, I will try fuzzy logic before I use it
7:45 am
hurshy

thank you!
7:46 am
MDidia

Well, I'm off - happy with my 5 points and good karma.
7:47 am
morgan

OMG i excluded this number for this cell...
7:53 am
dplass

what torture has Dr_God provided for us today
7:54 am
dplass

David Mitchell :Don't you sleep?
8:00 am
David Mitchell

Heh, dplass
8:00 am
David Mitchell

I got up just before coming on here
8:01 am
morgan

so guys i just started over. was completely dazzled
8:14 am
Ronin

this has the makings of a doozy
8:15 am
David Mitchell

I think I have everything marked now. Ugh.
8:15 am
David Mitchell

All the possibilities, that is.
8:17 am
Pnikosis

Man... all again
8:17 am
Pnikosis

starting over
8:19 am
hokie carla

ooh, how many points for an expert?
8:19 am
davidtoc

ooh! and expert! i don't think i've done one of those yet.
8:19 am
Ronin

don't get excited yet ;)
8:21 am
System

yeh its a bloody nightmare :)
8:21 am
System

my names not system!
8:21 am
System

wierd!!!
8:21 am
hokie carla

well, they're all nightmares to me.
8:21 am
System

I'll try logging in and out
8:22 am
Pnikosis

done, but I cheated :-(
8:22 am
Ronin

boo
8:22 am
migrod

how do you cheat?
8:22 am
migrod

hehe
8:22 am
Pnikosis

hahahaha
8:22 am
Pnikosis

>I'll not make you sin
8:22 am
Ronin

there is software that can help solve sudokus
8:23 am
Pnikosis

right, I needed some help so I can go back to work :-P
8:24 am
Stef

F*** ! I logged in and out and it says i HAVEN'T finished! I completed it 5 minutes ago. HOW can that happen?
8:28 am
Ronin

Finally finished pencil marking
8:28 am
Ronin

wow
8:28 am
peternl

Stef: now you can get the points again ;)
8:32 am
David Mitchell

Guh. I don't see anything..
8:32 am
Ronin

it's slow going
8:32 am
Ronin

I've found 1 number so far
8:32 am
peternl

ok, this is too much for me, so I just ran the solver I wrote, and it had no problem solving it in about a hundredth of a second. Don't you hate computers.
8:32 am
peternl

Of course, now I *cant* solve it, and have to wait til tomorrow, but that'
8:32 am
peternl

probably just as well, since I dont have time to do it today
8:33 am
hokie carla

you could log in as another player
8:34 am
David Mitchell

Oh, there's one number
8:36 am
peternl

no, I mean I wouldn't solve it now having run a program to do it (mind you, I didn't even look at the solution, so I suppose I could).
8:45 am
Ronin

hey! There's a number!
8:45 am
usagi

I have placed two numbers.....and then there's a sea of green :)
8:46 am
TiMuN

sea of green numbers here too ...
8:46 am
Ronin

yeah same here
8:46 am
TiMuN

but yeah, I placed a 3
8:46 am
raggedyandy3478

idk y, but i always used the red numbers
8:47 am
HatesTheInternet

I think everyone has placed that 3
8:47 am
raggedyandy3478

yup, i have
8:47 am
Ronin

I was just noting that I found one, after five minutes of searching it's nice to find something - lol
8:47 am
Ronin

I wish I were better at these
8:47 am
raggedyandy3478

dont we all?
8:47 am
Babbler

I've just started and there are 4 numbers that can be easily placed at the start. Haven't started entering my potentials yet.
8:48 am
raggedyandy3478

i got that easy 4 too
8:48 am
Ronin

Babbler, you're smarter than I
8:49 am
Babbler

lol!!! I'm not smart at all!! XD I always start with a general sweep of a grid, cross-hatching I think it's called. :D
8:49 am
raggedyandy3478

cross hatching?
8:49 am
Ronin

So do I, and you placed 4 while I only placed 2
8:50 am
Babbler

yes, it's when you look at a row or column of 3 boxes and see what needs to roughly goes where. Sometimes you can spot what needs to go where straight off.
8:50 am
HatesTheInternet

YEah, I only found 2 of those so far
8:50 am
caderoux

There are only two which can be placed that way according to Sudo Cue's analysis - I'd check my work...
8:50 am
Babbler

I've placed 5 numbers now
8:51 am
HatesTheInternet

oh, well then 2 is all I'll find then so far
8:51 am
Babbler

there's that too, caderoux..... there's a huge change I could be horribly wrong! :s
8:51 am
raggedyandy3478

i only placed 2, and now im onto the subscripts
8:51 am
HatesTheInternet

I try to avoid subscripts, they mess me up
8:52 am
raggedyandy3478

its the only way i finish any of these
8:53 am
caderoux

It says 37 hidden singles, 15 naked singles, 2 line-box intersections and 1 brute force. From what I can tell, you can get the 2 intersections and then you have to figure out the brute force, then it should all fall out with pairs.
8:53 am
Babbler

what says all that, caderoux?
8:53 am
Ronin

Very interesting caderoux
8:53 am
hurshy

before people said that this couldn't be done w/o guessing, are you saying different, caderoux
8:54 am
Ronin

yes he is
8:54 am
HatesTheInternet

Unless the brute force IS guessing...
8:54 am
Babbler

'brute force' means.... ??
8:55 am
Babbler

grabs a number 5 "you WILL go in that cell!!"
8:56 am
hurshy

the other person had used an analysis program too.
8:56 am
hurshy

it disturbs me if diff computer programs say diff things!!!
8:57 am
Babbler

it's interesting they do that, hursh. I'm sure there are different routes to solving the same puzzle.
8:58 am
Ronin

There are sites dedicated to people programming sudoku solvers, it's that there is no single right way
9:05 am
Tomahawk

This looks like an interesting sudoku.
9:06 am
Ronin

heh
9:06 am
HatesTheInternet

Well I've gotten 2 numbers in 25 minutes...
9:07 am
TiMuN

I just got my second num. yiha!
9:12 am
Dr_God

Are we all having fun solving today's controversial puzzle? :)
9:12 am
kindkat

I'm only 3 minutes in.....why the controversy?
9:12 am
Babbler

looks good so far, Dr G! just putting in my potentials : )
9:13 am
dplass

Dr_God we hate you. Yet we love you.
9:13 am
HatesTheInternet

if by "solving" you mean "complaining about", then yeah.
9:13 am
Babbler

why is it controversial?
9:13 am
raggedyandy3478

kindkat, look at the difficulty
9:13 am
kindkat

yes....I noticed...
9:13 am
caderoux

I'm not sure what "brute force means". I got as far as I could here and filled in all the greens. I managed to exclude some numbers, but nothing beyond the first 3 and 4. I couldn't see anything, so I keyed it into Simple Sudoku and it told me no hints. The last one I had like that I posted on a Sudoku forum and they gave me a logic sequence which released the puzzle; there wasn't anything more difficult than that afterwards. So I decided to try Sudo Cue to see if that had more powerful hinting. As far as there being a single right way, in most, if you do it in order of least complex patterns to most complex patterns, there is basically one way.
9:14 am
blad

nice 5 points
9:14 am
Ronin

There is much debate if it can be solved without guessing, software analyses says that it can but it's escaping lots of us
9:14 am
kindkat

aha...I see.
9:15 am
caderoux

anyway, I haven't gotten any further examining how to know which cell to brute force and what that means and have not looked at the solution.
9:16 am
polytriks

brute force = guessing
9:16 am
blad

there is guessing involved, can't be done without it.
9:16 am
usagi

ok...we all know there were two 'easy' numbers to fill in ( a 3 and a 4)....when someone gets all the way up to a third number why don't you 'splain how you got there
9:16 am
dplass

usagi: good idea
9:17 am
dplass

i was just lamenting last night "I wish I could sit behind someone and have them explain how they got each and every number"
9:17 am
usagi

might as well learn something - this one is kicking my butt :)
9:17 am
Babbler

umm.... I put 5 numbers in at the start
9:17 am
Ronin

I've got a program's analysis I'm reading over for that exact thing, the analysis is long
9:17 am
dplass

Babbler: really?
9:17 am
caderoux

I thought I had a 4 in the top middle cell - but that turned out to be a missing-7-green-marking, so I thought I had a naked pair which would have excluded the 6 from the 4/6 pair there.
9:17 am
Babbler

make that 6...
9:18 am
RandLS

babbler: there are only 2 numbers you can find using the cross section eliminations...if you've somehow found more, do tell
9:18 am
Babbler

ok...
9:18 am
caderoux

There's also some exclusions you can do based on 1s and 6s, but they don't fully reveal any cells.
9:19 am
RandLS

exactly
9:19 am
Babbler

I've got the 3s across the middle row of boxes
9:19 am
dplass

that's a gimme
9:19 am
Babbler

I've got all the 2 throughout the grid
9:19 am
raggedyandy3478

he just said that they dont fully reveal any cells
9:20 am
dplass

you can't get the 2 in the middle left
9:20 am
Babbler

I've got the 4s across the bottom row of boxes
9:20 am
RandLS

2's throughout is had to be a guess somewhere
9:20 am
dplass

or in the center
9:20 am
dplass

4s across the bottom, check
9:20 am
Babbler

I have : /
9:20 am
Babbler

maybe I'm wrong.... :/
9:20 am
dplass

there ya go
9:20 am
usagi

ok, the two easy ones were the three in the center left, and the 4 in the bottom center....anything after that is ahead of most of us
9:20 am
Babbler

I'll find out soon enough, won't I? lol
9:21 am
raggedyandy3478

so were all stuck....
9:21 am
Ronin

I'm going to post the program's explanation for the 3rd number, though it eludes me right now
9:21 am
HatesTheInternet

ok
9:21 am
dplass

no wait
9:21 am
dplass

i have it
9:21 am
dplass

10110100010001010111011110111000010101011
9:22 am
dplass

:D
9:22 am
caderoux

Shit, I thought it was 001011010101010110101100101101?
9:22 am
usagi

ok - first hint, no zeroes in Sudoku :)
9:22 am
blad

i did it... but had a lil help, someone showed me a 4
9:22 am
dplass

lol
9:22 am
Babbler

well why didn't you say that before lol!! (*goes straight over my head - whooosh!* )
9:23 am
RandLS

no, no, no....the top left cell is a 42. duh!
9:23 am
Ronin

For those looking for the program's explanation for the 3rd number: http://www.ronincyberpunk.com/3.txt
9:23 am
RandLS

actually, ALL the cells are 42! done!
9:24 am
Ronin

This was gotten from an online sudoku solver linked from sudocue.net
9:24 am
dplass

lol, that's all gibberishy
9:24 am
Ronin

there is some terminology, "box"es are the sets of 9
9:25 am
HatesTheInternet

So it takes like 8 steps of intution on top of intuition on top of intuition to get the third number?
9:25 am
dplass

well yet another puzzle kicks my butt. later.
9:25 am
caderoux

That is a forcing chain even more difficult that the one I previously needed - must go to work, cya...
9:25 am
Ronin

seeya
9:28 am
Ronin

From the looks of the analysis there are a series of numbers that rely on forcing chains
9:28 am
batgirl

hi I'm new!!!
9:28 am
Ronin

this is just evil
9:29 am
raggedyandy3478

hey batgirl, you came on one heck of a challenging day
9:29 am
usagi

I figured out the terminology....but I only get to step 3 before it confuses me : Consider the chains (4,5)+{??6|7?F}+(6,6) and (4,5)-1-(7,5)-7-(6,5).
Since it is certain that Row 6 will not contain the value 7 in at least one of the cells (6,6) and (6,5), the cell (4,5) does not contain the value 6.
- The move (4,5):=6 has been eliminated.
9:31 am
RoboLaserBear

I don't understand why "The value 6 in Box [3,3] must lie in Row 8."
9:31 am
Ronin

I'm still trying to grok it myself
9:32 am
Ronin

batgirl, welcome aboard but be forewarned this is a tough one
9:32 am
RoboLaserBear

if you can get it, then clearly thou art god
9:32 am
usagi

ok...that I can answer:) Row 7 has a 6 given (bottom left), bottom middle has row 8 full without a 6, so that box's 6 must be row 9....therefore bottom left's six must be row 8
9:32 am
Babbler

hi batgirl : ) you'll probably crack this before the rest of us, beginner's luck and all : )
9:32 am
usagi

...all that does is reduce the green a bit
9:32 am
batgirl

thanks I'll try
9:34 am
RoboLaserBear

I see. I was just sloppy about filling in possibles.
9:34 am
raggedyandy3478

ya i got all that b4, but it still doesnt actually get you anywhere
9:35 am
lslele

i got one number!
9:35 am
grigs

it does not take any guessing you can do it by straight logic
9:36 am
grigs

just remeber the rule of twins.
9:36 am
grigs

(whew, now i can go to work)
9:36 am
tuco

grigs that is not what a sudoku checking program said
9:36 am
Keisha

the board is suppose to be blank
9:36 am
grigs

well, i just did it....
9:36 am
tuco

you got lucky
9:36 am
usagi

to use the rule of twins I'd have to have some squares with only two possibilities :)
9:37 am
tuco

trial and error is guessing too.
9:37 am
Babbler

I have to power down..... thunder and lightening over London (UK). good luck and see you later! : )
9:37 am
grigs

I didn't use any trial and error. No guessing. Only filling in possibles.
9:38 am
grigs

Unless somewhere in there I made a mistake in my logic, which I guess would count as guessing.
9:38 am
migrod

what's the rule of twins?
9:38 am
Ronin

If you have 2 squares in a row that can both only be 1 or 2, then no other boxes can be 1 or 2
9:38 am
Ronin

no other boxes in that row that is
9:38 am
usagi

that applies to rows, columns and boxes
9:38 am
Ronin

right
9:38 am
grigs

if you have two squares in a line (vertical or horizontal) with only two possibilities, no other squares in that line can be either number.
9:39 am
Ronin

grigs, also for sets of 9
9:39 am
grigs

true that, Ronin.
9:39 am
tuco

lol
9:39 am
usagi

ie....if you have two squares in any set (row,column,box) that are either 1 or 7....then you know what one of them has to be one and the other has to be 7, so no other square in that set can be a 1 or a 7
9:40 am
grigs

with just those two rules, the puzzle can be solved in... oh... about an hour (i'm slow, I know, but I get there eventually)
9:40 am
grigs

anyway, to workwith me... good luck, y'all... or good logic, if you prefer.
9:40 am
polytriks

I don't think so grigs...
9:40 am
tuco

I solved but by trial and error surrounding the ones in the middle and lower middle squares
9:40 am
usagi

I went looking for twins a while ago....after filling in the two squares you easily and doing some logic to reduce possibilties I didn't have any twins on my board
9:41 am
zachary

the rule of twins can be expanded to the rule of triplets also if you have three squares in a row, column, or box with the same three numbers.
9:42 am
morgan

@usagi: thats what i did. but it failed twice
9:42 am
usagi

If it fails, it means you probably didn't have all the possibilities filled in......I have no twins on this board, personally
9:43 am
polytriks

Apparently this can be solved using a "3D Medusa" method
9:43 am
raggedyandy3478

????
9:43 am
raggedyandy3478

????
9:43 am
polytriks

http://www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr/sudoku/t
op95-analysis.htm
9:44 am
polytriks

if someone can work through that logic, let me know :)
9:44 am
usagi

I knew somewhere there must be mathies writing papers on Sudoku :)
9:44 am
batgirl

this is hard!!!! O well its better than paying attention in class right now lol!!!;)
9:45 am
raggedyandy3478

HS, or college batgirl?
9:46 am
batgirl

hs
9:46 am
raggedyandy3478

nice, ur the same way i was when i was in HS
9:46 am
morgan

paying attention in class sucks ;-)
9:47 am
batgirl

heck yes
9:48 am
Ronin

and I find myself stuck again
9:49 am
raggedyandy3478

we are all stuck
9:50 am
Ronin

I've paired down the pencil marks a lot, but there are is a whole lot of nothing for my feeble mind
9:50 am
raggedyandy3478

well i am gonna walk away for a little while and then come back to see how much good that does
9:52 am
batgirl

bye
9:53 am
kacie

im not very good at this online lol.. im a first timer
9:53 am
kacie

i can do them by hand though
9:53 am
Ronin

kacie, don't judge yourself by this one
9:53 am
Ronin

This is a difficult one
9:53 am
kacie

can i print it out? or will it ruin it?
9:55 am
Ronin

go for it, though it doesn't print out especially nice
9:55 am
kacie

lol i think ill just draw it
9:57 am
Ronin

Alright, I gotta take care of other stuff. I'll mess with this more later. Good luck everyone
10:07 am
mwpeterson

looks like the matrix with all those litle green numbers
10:22 am
caffeinatedelf

did you solve this one yet, hurshy?
10:51 am
scottru

ok, i have a whole board and just a few numbers filled in, and I don't see any twins or triplets.
10:54 am
RandLS

can someone explain the syntax of this chain description? (4,5)+{??6|7?F}+(6,6)
10:54 am
Krys10

kacie, if you're on a mac you can do a box-screen shot: apple-shift-4 to get a good copy to print out
11:06 am
yul

hi experts :)
11:09 am
btwrt

hi yul :)
11:10 am
marciikeler

man, this is redonkulous
11:10 am
marciikeler

i would start guessing but i don't even see a good place to start
11:11 am
David Mitchell

I don't know if I"m going to come out of this a much better solver or learn nothing at all
11:11 am
yul

looks like i will be here for a bit, btwrt
11:11 am
btwrt

so far i've employed all my tricks and managed to get one number. soooo ...
11:11 am
btwrt

oh wait! i have TWO
11:11 am
David Mitchell

I have two blanks filled in
11:12 am
caffeinatedelf

two more than me!!
11:12 am
yul

look closer :)
11:12 am
eggs

but don't hit your head off the screen
11:12 am
btwrt

yul, if you're farther along than me already, i may really not be your friend anymore
11:13 am
yul

no, i have 2
11:13 am
btwrt

ahh then we're all in the same boat :)
11:13 am
btwrt

except caff
11:13 am
redguy

Simple Sudoku says this thing has four solutions!
11:13 am
btwrt

?
11:13 am
bex777

someone posted a web page earlier that gives u a number to start with
11:13 am
marciikeler

i've got 2 as well
11:13 am
marciikeler

laa-aame
11:15 am
David Mitchell

Not supposed to work that way, is it, redguy?
11:19 am
marciikeler

k.. i think i'm gonna dive in & start guessing
11:20 am
bex777

FINISHED!!!!!!!!!
11:20 am
bex777

FINISHED!!!!!!!!!
11:20 am
btwrt

awesome! how'd you do it?
11:20 am
marciikeler

damn you!
11:20 am
btwrt

oh, you used that number? i'm thinking of doing that
11:21 am
bex777

i dont no really but that number that some one put on doesnt help that much but it gets u going
11:21 am
bex777

i dont no really but that number that some one put on doesnt help that much but it gets u going
11:22 am
btwrt

oh ok. i'm trying it, then. hurshy recommended :)
11:23 am
bex777

i have to do all my homework now though
11:23 am
marciikeler

what number ist hat?
11:23 am
marciikeler

i think i missed it
11:23 am
bex777

http://www.classical-webdesigns.co.uk/sudoku.

html
11:23 am
bex777

its on there
11:23 am
marciikeler

thanks
11:24 am
David Mitchell

I'm still hoping to do without
11:24 am
TP17

me too
11:24 am
marciikeler

i'm trying a wild guess without it first, if that doesn't work then i'll use the #
11:24 am
yul

same
11:25 am
bex777

hurshy says i have to tell u's i am 14
11:29 am
btwrt

lol good for you ;)
11:31 am
wth

Yay. I got my 2 numbers
11:31 am
wth

Yay. I got my 2 numbers!! :-)
11:31 am
wth

Yay. I got my 2 numbers!! :-)
11:31 am
wth

Yay. I got my 2 numbers!! :-)
11:32 am
wth

Oh. Sorry.
11:34 am
David Mitchell

I'm trying to use the "hidden subset" technique but haven't spotted anything yet
11:36 am
btwrt

well i used that number and i'm finished. the victory is less for having gotten help but ... at least i can get on with my day ;) good luck you guys! i hope you can solve it without getting help!
11:37 am
hokie carla

so how many points is it worth?
11:40 am
Atalante

finished!
11:42 am
David Mitchell

Five points, I think
11:42 am
Atalante

yup, 5
11:42 am
Ian Bradbury

Frigging Nora. that was tough. It's taken me approx 9 hours - on and off.
11:43 am
Ian Bradbury

I need a cup of tea... get my energy back
11:43 am
David Mitchell

Did you two do it without guessing?
11:43 am
Linda

messed up, so giving up. i'll try again tomorrow. i can only do the easy ones
11:45 am
Ian Bradbury

I did have to guess. I had either a 1 or a 7 for a particular square so I did a save and went with the 1. Good job I did the save too.... :)
11:45 am
David Mitchell

Heh
11:47 am
David Mitchell

Bother.
11:55 am
snlhartman

done...made 4 guesses in a row and nailed them all...
11:57 am
yul

i wish i knew the way of doing it without guessing
11:57 am
TP17

definitely want to try to finish without guessing
11:59 am
yul

tp17, if you do that, make a note of a key number,please
11:59 am
TP17

you got it
12:00 pm
yul

thanks
12:01 pm
David Mitchell

Eliminated one incorrect possibility I put down earlier..
12:01 pm
yul

ha
12:01 pm
TP17

Here's what I have so far, incase anybody wants to see. It's not much:

http://www.timmyponline.com/random/sud
oku.jpg
12:02 pm
David Mitchell

I think I'm about to fall asleep looking at this puzzle
12:04 pm
dillybravo

Mattias!!!!!
12:04 pm
ScottDavy

awwwexxxxx
12:04 pm
dillybravo

hee hee
12:09 pm
kai

damn this is hard
12:17 pm
yul

it is def. a guessing time for me :(
12:19 pm
marciikeler

HOLY SHIT!
12:19 pm
marciikeler

finally did it
12:19 pm
marciikeler

sorry for the french, but this has taken me all day
12:20 pm
yul

did you guess, m.?
12:22 pm
RoboLaserBear

There's something that ronin put up here a few hours ago that helped me. I didn't understand all the notation, but it smoothed things out considerably:
12:22 pm
macuser

Done!
12:22 pm
RoboLaserBear

http://www.ronincyberpunk.com/3.txt
12:23 pm
raggedyandy3478

that actually helped you, the termonology is so far off the wall that i dont get it at all
12:23 pm
raggedyandy3478

can you explain the notation?
12:25 pm
RoboLaserBear

not really
12:26 pm
marciikeler

yeah, i had to guess
12:26 pm
marciikeler

no cheating though :)
12:26 pm
RoboLaserBear

apparently it's from a sudoku solver that he found, which I can't find.
12:26 pm
yul

newer mind, i will miself
12:27 pm
raggedyandy3478

interesting
12:27 pm
RoboLaserBear

you are clearly the better sudokuer, marcii
12:27 pm
yul

no cheating for me too
12:29 pm
yul

but i need to find if there are any extra solving techniques
12:30 pm
raggedyandy3478

what does everyone else use to solve this stuff?
12:30 pm
dtan

damn expert? maybe it's easier than easy hah
12:30 pm
raggedyandy3478

techniques, not programs
12:31 pm
EasternBlue

tears, wailing and lamentations!
12:31 pm
EasternBlue

a few 4 letter words to boot!!
12:31 pm
Dave

programs are just automated techniques
12:31 pm
raggedyandy3478

lol
12:32 pm
raggedyandy3478

dave, do u have any other techniques to solve this thing?
12:32 pm
Dave

Well, I use all the standard ones... this one I believe requires a guess
12:32 pm
yul

slicing and guessing so far. newer needed xwing or swardfish, as i slice to death first :)
12:33 pm
Dave

but guess in a place where you can cascade several boxes to see
12:34 pm
raggedyandy3478

but guessing takes away from the point of sudoku
12:35 pm
Dave

well, it's not really a guess if you do it right
12:35 pm
Dave

it's a trail of logic that begins by assuming a value
12:35 pm
raggedyandy3478

haha, thats one way of looking at it
12:35 pm
Dave

:)
12:36 pm
Dave

much like in a mathematical proof if they use an assumed value to prove a single case, then extrapolate
12:36 pm
dtan

shift click - that's what it's all about when you don't know
12:37 pm
David Mitchell

You'll be surprised at what that doesn't do for you today, dtan
12:37 pm
caderoux

they call it a forcing chain - rather than a guess - but basically it's a lookahead - if you read the 3.txt file posted here, it explains it, but it's hard to breakdown the notation in the beginning
12:38 pm
Dave

this to me is above expert, the chain gets crazy long... though I probably picked the wrong box to start in first... :)
12:39 pm
David Mitchell

I've never used a forcing chain before but I'm reading about them
12:40 pm
EasternBlue

I'm leaving for now...I'll be back later!!
12:40 pm
EasternBlue

good luck!!
12:47 pm
hurshy

i guess people have different definitions of what makes a valid sudoku
12:48 pm
hurshy

some seem to say that it is not valid if you have to do that
12:48 pm
hurshy

oh well
12:50 pm
caderoux

There is that debate about symmetrical vs. non-symmetrical, too. ;-)
12:51 pm
TP17

any updates, aside from guessing?
12:51 pm
twofisted

done
12:51 pm
raggedyandy3478

wd
12:52 pm
raggedyandy3478

what did u do that got you out of the 'stuck' part that we are all at?
12:52 pm
yul

caderoux, where?
12:52 pm
caderoux

Anyone just used?: http://www.ronincyberpunk.com/3.txt And finished it from there?
12:53 pm
yul

i can not access it
12:53 pm
yul

newer mind
12:53 pm
Dave

I couldn't follow the notation easily... making my own chains here
12:57 pm
TP17

I'm just glad I did steps 1 and 2 in his file before I read it
12:57 pm
TP17

makes me feel a little bit smarter
1:00 pm
Dave

whew, done
1:04 pm
RandLS

caderoux - can you explain the notation in that solution?
1:04 pm
RandLS

4,5)+{??6|7?F}+(6,6) for instance
1:05 pm
caderoux

I don't understand those notations yet.
1:09 pm
David Mitchell

I don't even understand the reasoning for the first line in that thing
1:09 pm
David Mitchell

Oh wait
1:10 pm
David Mitchell

Suddenly I do
1:10 pm
David Mitchell

Silly me!
1:11 pm
davidtoc

i am so stuck...
1:16 pm
caderoux

after the steps in the 3.txt, it all drops out with no advanced techniques - now to understand that logic...
1:17 pm
TP17

I know that boxes are in []'s and cells are in ()'s. There's 3x3 of boxes and 9x9 of cells
1:18 pm
TP17

so step 1 says that the value of 1 in the top-left box has to be in the 3rd row, either (3,1) (3,2) or (3,3).
1:19 pm
TP17

which means you can eliminate the possibility that it's in the top-left-hand cell (1,1)
1:20 pm
TP17

step 2 follows the same logic, and step 3 is out of my league (for the moment)
1:20 pm
Sulihin

step 3 is the confusing part though :)
1:23 pm
apsmith

I think you can see step three by trying a 6 in box 4,5
1:23 pm
apsmith

cell 4,5
1:25 pm
Sulihin

yeah i'm still not seeing it
1:26 pm
Sulihin

ahh
1:27 pm
apsmith

If you put a 6 in cell 4,5, that forces a 4 in cell 3,5, and a 2 in cell 4,6, then a 5 in cell 5,5, then a 7 in cell 6,6 then there's nothing to put in cell 6,5
1:27 pm
Sulihin

the question is, is there a way to see that without guessing
1:28 pm
TP17

that's what I'm trying to find out
1:29 pm
Christopher

right, thats what Im wondering .... how do I spot that as a logical deduction.
1:29 pm
miller da killer

is there anyone out there who knows how to solve this without guessing?
1:29 pm
Sulihin

seems like there's a triple or quad with 567
1:29 pm
citizen511

It's impossible to solve this without guessing
1:30 pm
wwd

it's not impossible
1:30 pm
citizen511

Prove it
1:30 pm
Sulihin

you can't prove a negative ;)
1:30 pm
yul

guessing must
1:30 pm
wwd

there is a logical solution
1:31 pm
miller da killer

thanks citizen, that really helps! i suppose i'll start the guessing!
1:31 pm
citizen511

Not without guessing. Believe it or not there are sudoku puzzles where guessing is required.
1:31 pm
mirrin

how do you know which cell is 'box 4,5.'? The box I would think of as 4,5 has a 9 in it, given by the computer.
1:31 pm
davidtoc

not good ones, citizen511
1:31 pm
miller da killer

yeah, i had to guess on one the other day.
1:31 pm
wwd

if a computer can figure it out algorithmically, then guessing is not necessary
1:32 pm
RandLS

4, 5 means row 4, column 5
1:32 pm
Sulihin

that's not entirely true
1:32 pm
David Mitchell

Using enough chains can solve this, apparently
1:32 pm
miller da killer

yeah but you have to have amazing logic skills wwd
1:32 pm
mirrin

thanks
1:32 pm
davidtoc

yeah, but counting from which corner, RandLS?
1:32 pm
Sulihin

the most common algorithm for computers to do this kind of thing is basically guessing
1:32 pm
wwd

that's the whole point... to improve your logical skills
1:32 pm
Sulihin

top left is 1,1 davidtoc
1:32 pm
davidtoc

thx
1:32 pm
citizen511

Computers figure it out using recursive functions, where the solver proceeds by logic until it becomes trapped, but once it reaches a point where it can't proceed, it guesses.
1:32 pm
Mayan_Warrior

miller da killer: Your Dad will pick you up at 1:30 for dentist...
1:33 pm
davidtoc

so it's the opposite of what they teach you in school, where 1,1 is the bottom left.
1:33 pm
miller da killer

hey thanks mayan warrior aka mom!
1:33 pm
citizen511

If computer program fails to solve it after the first guess, it returns to where it had to guess and tries another option.
1:33 pm
miller da killer

mom have you figured this out?
1:33 pm
abstract17fr

just finished .. good look all !
1:34 pm
Mayan_Warrior

I had to look back on chats and check some clues to get my "guess" to work!
1:34 pm
miller da killer

hey abstract give me a good number?
1:34 pm
miller da killer

well, i'll work on the guessing in my next class mayan
1:35 pm
Mayan_Warrior

Yeah, you'll really learn stats that way!!!
1:35 pm
citizen511

I have just confirmed that this puzzle requires guessing and cannot be solved by logic alone. Try www.sudokusolver.co.uk
1:35 pm
Sulihin

you can't prove a negative
1:35 pm
Sulihin

that just confirms that the solver had to guess
1:35 pm
miller da killer

hey thanks citizen!
1:35 pm
the_man_stephen

all that means is that the solver is missing a logic rule
1:35 pm
Sulihin

not that there's no possibly logical solution
1:35 pm
Texel

I can prove that I don't have eleven fingers
1:36 pm
miller da killer

alright you guys, i'll leave you to your argumnet cuz i got to go.
1:36 pm
citizen511

In fact, the solver required guessing after getting only two cells by logic.
1:36 pm
wwd

then the algorithm is faulty
1:37 pm
Sulihin

i still want to find a way to logic what that chain showed
1:38 pm
citizen511

Well if you figure it out, could you explain what step 3 means in plain english?
1:38 pm
Sulihin

step 3 means there isn't a 6 in box 4,5 because it would cause a conflict in 6,6 and 6,5
1:39 pm
Sulihin

and 7,5?
1:39 pm
citizen511

4,5 meaning 4 over from the left, 5 down?
1:40 pm
Texel

(x,y) is row, column
1:40 pm
RandLS

yeah, (x, y) is a bad way to describe it since (x, y) makes people think of cartesian coordinates
1:40 pm
wwd

texel... are you from texel?
1:41 pm
caderoux

the chain is a logic. Haven't we had one on here which required the colors method? That's simpler and useful when you have a lot of boxes with pairs. You color one path blue and the other yellow, say, and then anything not colored can be excluded. After that, lower complexity solving techniques usually finish it off.
1:41 pm
Texel

I am not XD
1:41 pm
Texel

took it from graphics nomenclature - I'm a graphics programmer
1:41 pm
wwd

oh
1:41 pm
wwd

just curious.... texel is the island where my family comes from
1:41 pm
caderoux

Or sometimes in colors you reduce to a contradiction
1:41 pm
Texel

I have heard of it
1:42 pm
wwd

actually island is probably not the right word
1:42 pm
wwd

but you know what i mean
1:46 pm
kacie

so yeah i think i give up
1:47 pm
TP17

Sulihin, do you understand how Step 3 works? I can't see how a 6 in box (4,5) would cause a conflict in either (6,6) or (6,5)
1:49 pm
jdog4

what do you mean by "box (4,5)"? which box is that?
1:49 pm
Texel

4th row, 5th column
1:49 pm
Sulihin

i'm fighting over whether chains are logic or guessing atm :)
1:49 pm
jdog4

from top left?
1:50 pm
Texel

or the center top box of the middle square
1:50 pm
Texel

yes, from top left
1:50 pm
jdog4

thx
1:50 pm
Texel

chains are logic if you can fit them in your head, IMO - but if you have to set pencil to paper in order to "see ahead" that far then I would just consider it guessing
1:54 pm
evanonut

call it whatever you want texel
1:54 pm
caderoux

I guess it's all a question of scale. Some of the patterns people here would consider only moderately advanced (X-xings, swordfish) are looking ahead to some extent. XY-wings and colors, definitely
1:54 pm
caderoux

But no one calls any of those guessing - just an assumption which results in a contradiciton
1:55 pm
caderoux

or contradiction
1:55 pm
TP17

If I put a 6 in (4,5), I see how it causes the discrepancy in (6,5) and (6,6), but I CANNOT figure out how you could've logically deduced that without "guessing and looking ahead"
1:55 pm
Texel

that's why it was considered guessing by the solver
1:56 pm
TP17

I agree
1:56 pm
RandLS

i think sulihin and i have determined your test for "is it a guess" - can the chaining bit to find 6 be turned into a formal, general case proof?
1:56 pm
RandLS

x-wing can, y-wing can. can this chain?
1:56 pm
TP17

but if I run through that scenario and end it by saying, "so if I originally placed a 6 in (4,5) it will cause a problem, so LOGICALLY, 6 cannot go in (4,5)" -- does that make it logical?
1:56 pm
caderoux

reductio ad absurdum - yes, it's just a proof by contradiction
1:57 pm
Texel

well the particular chain in question results in a contradiction by elimination and not explicit incorrectness
1:58 pm
Texel

it ends up that there's no number possible to go in the box, whereas with most contradictions it forces a particular number which in turn violates a rule
1:58 pm
caderoux

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absu
rdum
2:02 pm
Babbler

well I don't know how, but I finished!
2:02 pm
evanonut

yay babsy
2:02 pm
Babbler

nut!! is it time to be chalker stalkers??
2:03 pm
Texel

I figured out the first part of step three there
2:03 pm
Texel

er, nevermind.. it's a later step
2:03 pm
evanonut

i don't think we can chalker stalker until 1) it gets dark out and 2) ren goes hom.
2:04 pm
evanonut

hope you sorted out your wardrobe better than yesterday.
2:04 pm
fnurt

I have filled in exactly 2 numbers and I really don't get what trick I'm supposed to do at this point. Maybe I'm just a n00b.
2:04 pm
Babbler

fair do's! *nods in agreement and winks* ;D
2:04 pm
evanonut

we'll be sneaky
2:04 pm
Babbler

lol, nut! well, as much as it kills me to wear Cats, if that's what I gotta do, then I gotta do it! ;)
2:05 pm
Sulihin

right but supposedly "proper" sudoku don't require reductio ad absurdum
2:05 pm
evanonut

yes, the sacrifice is for the greater good. me thinks you would pass out if you ever had a look at my farmer wardrobe. which reminds me, i took farm pictures for you!
2:06 pm
Babbler

marvellous! how do I get to see the farm pics? (you'd pass out if you saw what I really wear, lol!) ; )
2:06 pm
evanonut

you want me to send them, or up load them to a web site you can go to?
2:07 pm
Babbler

ummm *thinks*... is website ok? be quicker to see and won't make my pc fall over. : )
2:08 pm
evanonut

okay - gimme a bit
2:09 pm
Babbler

Sulihin, I've been playing sudoku for over a year and reductio ad absurdum seems to be where it's at for most of them. ; )
2:09 pm
mirrin

has anyone else had the problem where they click on a square to select a number and all the little boxes are blank? It wont let me ad any numbers.
2:09 pm
Babbler

so... what's 'proper' sudoku then? ;
2:09 pm
Sulihin

who knows!
2:10 pm
Sulihin

sure, guessing can solve it easier, but purportedly it shouldn't be necessary
2:10 pm
Babbler

no mirrin, that hasn't happened to me. oh dear. : /
2:10 pm
Babbler

well that's tosh, Sulihin. Some grids can only be solved by guessing!
2:10 pm
evanonut

i've had to guess twice so far.
2:10 pm
Sulihin

can they?
2:11 pm
Babbler

yup!! and some are supposedly "impossible".
2:11 pm
mirrin

i think it depends on what you mean by guessing.
2:11 pm
evanonut

but i just thought it was cause i couldn't see what i neede to see.
2:11 pm
Sulihin

according to whom?
2:11 pm
melly126

someone posted a website where they put one number in a certain box that can help you solve the rest of the problem by logic if anybody wants it
2:11 pm
evanonut

babsy - i 'think' i'm uploading now. who know, new program i'm learning.
2:11 pm
mirrin

if i have two squares where I can put a 4, I mentally see what happens a couple steps ahead if I put a 4 in each of them. i dont think of that as guessing.
2:11 pm
Babbler

lol!! well.... lemme tell ya! all those newspaper and mag articles, websites, ummmm.... what else do I read??... lol!
2:12 pm
Babbler

cool, nut : )
2:12 pm
Sulihin

yeah, according to what i've read all published sudoku can be solved without guessing...
2:12 pm
Sulihin

so who's read correctly?
2:12 pm
TP17

Mirrin, some people consider that a form of guessing, some don't
2:12 pm
mirrin

hurrah! I waited a bit and it is working again.
2:12 pm
Babbler

I have!! (lol!!) : D
2:12 pm
Babbler

good for you, mirrin :D
2:13 pm
Babbler

did you see the post earlier about how computers solve sudoku? they can't without guessing either...
2:13 pm
Sulihin

can't they?
2:13 pm
evanonut

yeah, sorry babs, stupid program is 'not respoding', suppose it will be a bit yet.
2:13 pm
wwd

they can if the algorithm is right
2:13 pm
Sulihin

you use that term so readily :)
2:14 pm
Babbler

yup.... not sure if the post is still on here, but it said something like a computer will go so far with definites, then it will start guessing.... and if required, further guessing. When it goes wrong, it goes back to the last guess... (which is how I play!) :D:D:D
2:14 pm
Babbler

ok, nut, let me know when : D
2:15 pm
Sulihin

right but that doesn't mean anything...
2:15 pm
Sulihin

it's easy for a computer to do that, so it's easier to program computers to solve it that way
2:15 pm
Babbler

well alright, computers don't have to guess every single time, but when a guess is required, apparently that's what they do
2:15 pm
Sulihin

it doesn't mean it cannot be done in another way
2:15 pm
Sulihin

btw, i'm a programmer by trade
2:16 pm
suchness

you can solve this logically
2:16 pm
Babbler

no, you're right, it doesn't. there are grids that can be solved by logic alone. Obviously that's the first step until you reach an impasse, then it gets "creative" shall we say. ;D
2:16 pm
Sulihin

but to say that a program solves it by guessing only proves the program wasn't designed to solve it in another way, not that there isn't another way to solve it without guessing
2:16 pm
Sulihin

yeah but the interesting thing for me is understanding all the logic
2:17 pm
Sulihin

so presuming that it can be solved without guessing, thats how i want to solve it
2:17 pm
Babbler

I'm not a programmer, I was having my dinner when I saw that post and it made sense to me. Ronincyberpunk's solution went over my head. I don't know everything. :'(
2:17 pm
evanonut

the interesting thing for me is how disappointed i am that i don't get a few seconds to look at my completed grid before it turns yellow.
2:18 pm
yul

guy, chess design to guess, why not sudoku?
2:18 pm
Babbler

good luck to you, Sulihin, I hope you can do it. ; )
2:18 pm
Babbler

I'm right with you, nut. I wish we could even see a pale grey version of our grid with "Congratulations" written all over it! :D
2:19 pm
evanonut

couple of fireworks - medal of honor
2:19 pm
Babbler

a curtsey or a bow wouldn't go amiss...... fanfare.....
2:20 pm
evanonut

cigar, glass of wine, pat on the shoulder
2:20 pm
Babbler

a shoulder massage....
2:20 pm
TP17

free p40n
2:20 pm
TP17

pr0n, rather
2:20 pm
TP17

heh
2:20 pm
evanonut

what?
2:20 pm
TP17

the geek speak for porn
2:20 pm
Babbler

que?
2:21 pm
Babbler

*covers eyes*
2:21 pm
evanonut

no, no need for that tp -
2:21 pm
TP17

porn = pr0n
elite=L337
2:21 pm
TP17

I know, I was just making a joke
2:21 pm
evanonut

shopping spree
2:21 pm
Babbler

what is that elite thing??
2:21 pm
Babbler

hamper from Harrods....
2:21 pm
TP17

the 3's are supposed to be E's, and the 7 is supposed to be a T
2:22 pm
evanonut

i'd settle for a case of beer.
2:22 pm
Babbler

ooooh!! now I gettit! thanks tp17 : ) been bugging me for ages!
2:22 pm
Babbler

I wouldn't settle for less than a crate of champagne.... ; )
2:22 pm
evanonut

why do that tp?
2:22 pm
Babbler

so L337 says "Leet" ?
2:23 pm
Babbler

woss Leet then?
2:23 pm
evanonut

still don't get it
2:23 pm
Sulihin

1337 you mean
2:23 pm
Babbler

geek speak, nut. It's a lingo invented by computer nerds to make out they're dead clever and everything. GW was telling us about it the other day.
2:24 pm
evanonut

hey, i'm dead clever!
2:24 pm
Babbler

1337? I heard it was L337? I'm befuddled.....
2:24 pm
Sulihin

originally it was used to obfuscate speech so that automated scanners couldn't pick up keywords
2:24 pm
Sulihin

ike pr0n :)
2:24 pm
Babbler

ahaaa!! that makes sense, Sulihin! :D
2:24 pm
evanonut

oooh----
2:25 pm
Babbler

I'm a genius, me, nut! lol :D
2:25 pm
binaryslave

actually, leet speak was mainly a product of gamers, not computer geeks
2:25 pm
Sulihin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet/1337
2:25 pm
evanonut

if it's all the same to ya'll, i'll just stick with my regular lingo, don't won't look down the the regulars from my hhigh horse
2:26 pm
Babbler

yeh me too. I'll stick to normal lingo too. : )
2:26 pm
Texel

a solver purporting to exhaust all known methods of logic just told me "sorry, but I've got to guess"
2:26 pm
TP17

haha. We use it here at work, but just to make fun of the people that actually type like that. We've actually had a guy send an email with "LOL" in it. There were a few managers on it, and he was so "dorked up", he didn't know better than not to use Geek Speak
2:27 pm
Babbler

ahaaa!! leet = elite!! thanks for that link, Sulihin :D
2:27 pm
binaryslave

LOL isn't geek speak, it's an acronym
2:27 pm
Texel

the question is how much logic they coded into it
2:27 pm
evanonut

babs, i'm having upload issues, you have an email address you don't mind me sending to? i'll only send um, five.
2:28 pm
Babbler

soz binary slave. that's how someone described it to me. (but geek speak sounds funny, huh?)
2:28 pm
Babbler

babbler_2005@yahoo.co.uk
2:28 pm
evanonut

kay, sorry bout that
2:29 pm
Babbler

no worries ; )
2:30 pm
Babbler

Texel - did you just say an expert HAS to guess today's grid?? see!! I started off by magically finding numbers I had no right to find, followed by a guess, followed by an educated guess with pairs.... and finished! :D
2:31 pm
evanonut

five farmies on their way, the mother in law picture is hilarious
2:31 pm
Babbler

k.. I'll get ready.... :D
2:32 pm
Texel

it's the solver at sudokusolver.co.uk
2:32 pm
getradicaldude

a hoi hoi, saru girl
2:32 pm
Texel

but since they don't use the "standard" terms for their logic methods, it's hard to see what they have going there
2:32 pm
Babbler

I haven't tried any solvers yet. any good?
2:34 pm
Babbler

Q: does Zone Alarm update automatically or do you sometimes have to follow prompts?
2:36 pm
yul

starting over
2:40 pm
TP17

binary slave, what is LOL an acronym for?
2:41 pm
David Mitchell

"Laughing out loud"
2:42 pm
TP17

I've heard it referred to as "Lots of Love"
2:42 pm
TP17

SCUBA is an acronym. LOL is Geek Speak
2:43 pm
Texel

wee
2:43 pm
Texel

two guesses sends this puzzle crashing down
2:43 pm
Texel

LOL is certainly "laughing out loud"
2:44 pm
yul

same with me :(
2:44 pm
Texel

akin to "rofl"
2:44 pm
evanonut

roflol
2:44 pm
TP17

lmao
2:44 pm
TP17

ttyl
2:44 pm
evanonut

brb
2:44 pm
evanonut

bbl
2:45 pm
Texel

would anyone object to me giving the locations of the two boxes I guessed? I know some people are having a hard time cracking it
2:45 pm
binaryslave

tp, geek speak, or l337 speak as some call it, is really just substitution of letters with other similiar letters or numbers.
2:45 pm
TP17

I know what it is
2:45 pm
TP17

you said that LOL wasn't geek speak. I said it was
2:45 pm
evanonut

this one is TOUGH
2:45 pm
binaryslave

LOL, stands for laughing out loud and came about because of chat rooms and email
2:45 pm
TP17

that's all
2:46 pm
Texel

well, I'll post the locations of the two boxes then
2:47 pm
evanonut

i'd be happy to get rid of a few greenies even.
2:47 pm
Texel

(2, 7) and (5, 3) - if you get the correct numbers in those two, the entire rest of the puzzle can be solved through simple logic
2:48 pm
Texel

that's (row, column) from the top left, 1-indexed
2:49 pm
Texel

another hint is that those two boxes each have only two possibilties for numbers - so at most you would do 4 guess-and-checks
2:49 pm
Texel

hope that helps, I'm filling my last box now and logging
2:49 pm
TP17

congrats Texel
2:50 pm
Texel

thanks
2:53 pm
mattdenham

evanonut - what's a greenie?
2:54 pm
evanonut

pencilled in numbers.
2:58 pm
hokie carla

wait, expert is only 5 pts? what is the 10 pt. category called?
3:00 pm
mattdenham

ah, ok. I'm using red, is that any different?
3:02 pm
hokie carla

well, depends on how you play it, matt. red means it's not that number & green means it could be. but if you are playing reds as you think it could be, then there is no difference.
3:02 pm
Christopher

expert was 10pt. It was changed a while back.
3:03 pm
Babbler

what's "ttyl" ?
3:03 pm
wwd

"talk to you later"
3:03 pm
Christopher

talk to you later
3:03 pm
Babbler

oh!! lol!! "talk to you later" :D
3:04 pm
hurshy

babs, how did you not know that
3:04 pm
acheekymonkey

or the tigger way - ttfn "ta ta for now"
3:04 pm
Babbler

no one's used it with me before, hursh. : /
3:04 pm
hurshy

lol
3:05 pm
hurshy

i guess you don't chat with many teens online then
3:05 pm
Babbler

see, I just grab people's ankles so they never get a chance! lol!
3:05 pm
hurshy

lol
3:05 pm
Babbler

funnily enough, no, hursh, I don't. : )
3:05 pm
wwd

you grab people's ankles?
3:05 pm
Babbler

only kidding, wwd ; )
3:05 pm
wwd

oh
3:09 pm
evanonut

babsy, like your pictures?
3:10 pm
evanonut

wwd - she only grabs ankles when she's chalker stalkering
3:10 pm
wwd

chalker?
3:10 pm
evanonut

er, yah, you know, like chalk.
3:11 pm
wwd

i don't get your meaning
3:11 pm
evanonut

sorry, guess it's only funny to me and babs
3:11 pm
hurshy

lololol
3:11 pm
wwd

i have no doubt, i just don't understand the joke
3:12 pm
evanonut

i could explain, but you would just roll your eyes
3:12 pm
hurshy

oh, oh *gasping from laughing so hard*
3:12 pm
wwd

i probably wouldn't, but i am a bit too tired for humor at the moment
3:12 pm
evanonut

hurshy luv, perhaps you should sit a spell, don't want you to pass out now.
3:13 pm
hurshy

*ceases rolling at nut's orders. sits quietly"
3:13 pm
hurshy

phew.
3:13 pm
wwd

hey... at least someone enjoyed that
3:13 pm
evanonut

there now, how about a nice glass of wine
3:13 pm
hurshy

virtual or real?
3:14 pm
evanonut

real of course
3:14 pm
hurshy

oh then no
3:14 pm
evanonut

right...virtual then
3:15 pm
hurshy

yummy, virtual wine
3:15 pm
evanonut

i call it megagig
3:15 pm
wwd

it's got byte... hehe
3:15 pm
Babbler

lol, nut!! yup, I only grab ankles when I'm chalker stalkering! XD. (nope - not got pics yet) : )
3:16 pm
hurshy

tastes like a very good vintage, nut
3:16 pm
Babbler

lol wwd! :D
3:16 pm
wwd

do you stalk chalkers often?
3:17 pm
Babbler

LOL!! no, only with nut on a good day! ;D
3:17 pm
evanonut

no no no, we chalker stalk
3:17 pm
wwd

sounds like an interesting past time
3:17 pm
Babbler

btw - it's stalking with chalk ; )
3:17 pm
evanonut

we wear cat boots, jeans, flannels, leave our guns at home in the cookie jar and are very very sneaky.
3:18 pm
wwd

oh... hmm
3:18 pm
Babbler

yeah, and I can't wear my edwardian boots either. :'(
3:18 pm
wwd

i'm sure this is all very funny when you know what you are talking about... unfortunately, things seem to be floating above me for the moment
3:18 pm
evanonut

nope babs, not allowed, and when you catch your chalker stalker victim, you nail them with a chalk mustache!
3:18 pm
Babbler

wwd - s'alright, we're continuing some banter from the babble chatlog last night. ; )
3:19 pm
wwd

oh... i don't really like babble very much.... too much like boggle
3:19 pm
Babbler

lol!! chalk moustache! XD
3:19 pm
Babbler

I've never played boggle. : /
3:19 pm
evanonut

i love babble, only i'm not fussed about actually finishing the puzzle the way a bunch of people are.
3:20 pm
Babbler

yeah, I don't play if I know I'm not gonna finish.
3:20 pm
wwd

well, it's similar to babble though it's more time based and is usually in competition to other players
3:20 pm
hurshy

boggle boggle
3:20 pm
evanonut

boggle is brilliant
3:20 pm
Babbler

I'd lose then. I can be very slow sometimes. : /
3:20 pm
wwd

i'm sure you'd acclimate
3:20 pm
evanonut

i LOVE boggle, only no one will play with me
3:21 pm
Babbler

poor nut. :(
3:21 pm
hurshy

oh nut, it's basically the same with me
3:21 pm
hurshy

only really it's that i won't play it with them bc i feel too guilty
3:21 pm
evanonut

we'll boggle sometime hursh
3:21 pm
wwd

guilty?
3:21 pm
Babbler

yeah, guilty?
3:21 pm
evanonut

i'm a good loser
3:21 pm
hurshy

bc i beat everyone so very badly
3:21 pm
wwd

oh... hmm...
3:22 pm
hurshy

nut are you in the states or england?
3:22 pm
wwd

do you use three letter words? i hate it when people play with three letter words... i am a passionate four letter worder
3:22 pm
evanonut

except at sports. i really hate losing at sports. if i'm playing against my husband, i hate him. i'm in the states hursh.
3:22 pm
Babbler

you'd love babble then, wwd! : )
3:22 pm
Sulihin

yet your nickname is only 3 letters!
3:22 pm
Babbler

LOL Sulihan!!
3:22 pm
hurshy

well then, you're on, nut!
3:22 pm
wwd

i don't like babble because some of the words are just crazy
3:23 pm
evanonut

feel free to kick my derriere anytime you please
3:23 pm
Babbler

fair do's, wwd, that they are. : /
3:23 pm
wwd

sulihin... my nickname is my initials... i blame my parents
3:23 pm
hurshy

what state nut?
3:23 pm
Sulihin

yeah i was just kidding :)
3:23 pm
evanonut

pennsylvania - you hursh?
3:23 pm
hurshy

ct
3:23 pm
wwd

i realized... as was i
3:24 pm
hurshy

not too far!
3:24 pm
evanonut

hmmmm....
3:24 pm
hurshy

well depending where in PA
3:24 pm
hurshy

i'm on the west edge of CT
3:24 pm
wwd

sulihin... did you say you are a programmer by trade?
3:24 pm
evanonut

but hursh, i'm in western pa
3:24 pm
evanonut

but hursh, i'm in western pa
3:24 pm
evanonut

oops
3:24 pm
evanonut

quite close to ohio really
3:24 pm
hurshy

oh, let's see, how many hours is that from here...5, 6?
3:25 pm
evanonut

7?
3:25 pm
wwd

can't you just play boggle online together or something?
3:25 pm
hurshy

hmm... well, if we meet in the middle it's not so bad
3:25 pm
evanonut

dunno
3:25 pm
evanonut

never saw it online except for download
3:25 pm
benburleson

Isn't it against the rules of sudoku to guess and check??
3:25 pm
hurshy

boggle online... if there is a site my school doesn't block
3:25 pm
wwd

no
3:25 pm
hurshy

ben - apparently, that is a debate.
3:26 pm
wwd

ah... scholl networks
3:26 pm
Sulihin

it's been debated at great lenght at least :)
3:26 pm
Babbler

what do you mean, ben?
3:26 pm
Babbler

yeah, Sulihin and I had a head to head, didn't we? ;D
3:26 pm
hurshy

he means babs that some of us believe that no sudoku should REQUIRE guessing, all should be solvable by logic
3:27 pm
wwd

are there actually rules to sudoku?
3:27 pm
evanonut

ah hursh, boggling from work?
3:27 pm
hurshy

and "guessing" would include thinking ahead.
3:27 pm
benburleson

I read that if you don't know absolutely what goes in the box, you can't fill it in. Logic must back up every entry
3:27 pm
Sulihin

theres THE rule ofc
3:27 pm
hurshy

work/home is same nut, boarding school.
3:27 pm
wwd

hmm
3:27 pm
wwd

nice
3:27 pm
Babbler

oh!! nah, utter tosh. whatever gets a completed grid is cool by me!! lol!
3:27 pm
Sulihin

no group can contain the same number twice
3:27 pm
hurshy

babs, some of us feel that guessing is cheap
3:27 pm
evanonut

bugger, didn't realize that.
3:27 pm
hurshy

it does not require intelligence
3:28 pm
evanonut

well than, slap me silly and call me cheap!
3:28 pm
Babbler

I call it intelligent, hursh. yes it does require intelligence!!! :o !! what are you on about??
3:28 pm
Sulihin

from my point of view it's more if i don't understand the logic to solve the puzzle then there's something for me to learn
3:28 pm
hurshy

well, if there is some logic you don't know, yes, i would agree
3:28 pm
wwd

right.... me too... besides, it's more of a challenge
3:29 pm
Sulihin

the problem lies in what the creators of the puzzle define as valid though
3:29 pm
Babbler

I look for patterns all the time in sudoku. I'm fairly confident I've cracked the twins rule, and now I'm working on triplets.
3:29 pm
hurshy

but if there is NO way to just use logic, i think that is not a valid sudoku
3:29 pm
evanonut

for my part, i just like to give it a go. if i can't make it out, ah well!
3:29 pm
Sulihin

as long as it's fun :)
3:29 pm
Babbler

I think logic and creativity work side by side in sudoku
3:29 pm
hurshy

i'm reading the chat log to see what diff people's computer analyses showed
3:30 pm
Babbler

hear hear, Sulihin, as long as it's fun :D
3:30 pm
wwd

computer analyses?
3:31 pm
Babbler

s'right, nut. when I play newspaper sudokus, if I haven't solved it first time, I throw it away.
3:31 pm
wwd

i think all the ones published in newspapers are fabulously easy
3:31 pm
evanonut

i'm bout to give up on this bad boy.
3:32 pm
evanonut

i've got overtime coming my way, don't want to be sick of sitting when it gets here.
3:32 pm
hurshy

nut, there is one number you can place which make the rest fall out with simple logic
3:32 pm
Babbler

I was close to that too, nut, but then the thought of points kept me going. I threw a few numbers at it and it seemed to work. I also stopped to eat! ;D
3:33 pm
evanonut

hmmm, it IS ten points i suppose.
3:33 pm
hurshy

i will give you a coded hint if you like, so it won't be obvious to the people who don't want to hear it
3:33 pm
Babbler

which number was that, hursh? (or a clue, if not the exact number)
3:33 pm
hurshy

no it is 5 points
3:33 pm
evanonut

no no no, thats okay
3:33 pm
evanonut

maybe ill break a bit and come back to it
3:34 pm
hurshy

the first box is the number of planets times the number of peas in a pod plus the normal human number of fingers divided by the number of "golden rings" in the 12 days of christmas
3:34 pm
hurshy

now if you don't want to know don't think about that
3:35 pm
hurshy

shoot, i went the wrong way
3:35 pm
evanonut

hurshy, you sure that school of yours doesn't have padded walls?
3:35 pm
hurshy

not golden rings, swans a swimming
3:35 pm
hurshy

:)
3:35 pm
Babbler

*whooshes overhead* :s
3:36 pm
hurshy

come on, babs, you must know those numbers.
3:36 pm
hurshy

i made them all things that are common knowledge, i thought
3:36 pm
Babbler

well peas in a pod has thrown me cos there's not always the same number. I should know, I used to help my Mum when I was a kid.
3:36 pm
hurshy

from the saying, babs
3:36 pm
Babbler

ohhhh!! duh
3:37 pm
Babbler

hang on, forgot how many planets there are..... just going to commune with google.... brb...
3:37 pm
evanonut

like forrest and jenny
3:37 pm
tonyfro

That threw me for a second, too. :)
3:37 pm
David Mitchell

I don't know about the peas
3:38 pm
evanonut

babs is lying, i happen to know she's finished.
3:38 pm
hurshy

she might still want to know how many planets there are
3:38 pm
Babbler

yeah, Ihave finished, actually. I'm just hanging out. ;D
3:39 pm
evanonut

see
3:39 pm
hurshy

wow, looks like grigs made an incredibly lucky mistake
3:39 pm
Babbler

are we counting newly discovered planets like that chairon (sp?) and that other one, Xena?
3:39 pm
hurshy

no just the normal ones in our solar system
3:39 pm
David Mitchell

Charon is a moon of Pluto, more or less
3:40 pm
hurshy

if we had to count ALL the planets... well, get out your star trek encyclopedias...
3:40 pm
Babbler

yes, hursh, I think that's the number I got over there too. (figured out your coded clue at last!) : )
3:41 pm
hurshy

lol
3:41 pm
evanonut

bummer, dang new medicare prescription plan sucks!
3:41 pm
David Mitchell

I hope I worked it out right
3:41 pm
hurshy

see, and people think there is no way to give clues in here w/o ruining it for other people
3:41 pm
David Mitchell

I'm running with it
3:41 pm
Babbler

you sure deserve a medal for that one, hursh, that was a beauty!! lol! :D
3:42 pm
evanonut

gov't toting on about how great it is, well, they just said the hubby nuts drugs weren't covered. i'm gonna have to find out who's neck to wring.
3:42 pm
Babbler

oh no, that doesn't sound too good, nut. sorry to hear that.
3:43 pm
evanonut

i hope i can straighten it out, i don't have 20,000 a month to blow on drugs.
3:44 pm
hurshy

neck to wring - bush? or perhaps that 5th supreme ct judge?
3:45 pm
evanonut

i'll take anyone really. as if i can work 60 hour weeks AND sort through this crap.
3:45 pm
evanonut

sorry, but i'm a mite bit irate now.
3:45 pm
hurshy

i'm so sorry nut!!! :( :(
3:46 pm
evanonut

yeah, something finally works and they cut it out of the frigging pharmacy
3:46 pm
evanonut

-- side note: did anyone notice that 'nut' is in the babble puzzle today?
3:47 pm
Babbler

haven't played babble (again) today, nut. I feel so mad about this meds thing. So sorry to hear that.
3:47 pm
evanonut

i'm sure it can be sorted out, but really, who are they to play god?
3:48 pm
hurshy

it is the story of the future... all these things will be invented that would improve people's lives so much, but only the rich will get them.
3:48 pm
Babbler

'they' do it everywhere. over here in the UK too. : /
3:48 pm
Babbler

now why haven't I fallen off my chair to hear that, hursh? I think you're right...
3:49 pm
evanonut

oh, i'll get it anyway. i'll call the company that makes it first and go on from there. if i have to i'll get a loan.
3:49 pm
Babbler

find out if there's a generic version?
3:49 pm
evanonut

bab's, i've heard horror stories about uk healthcare
3:49 pm
evanonut

babs, thats the 20,000 one
3:50 pm
Babbler

there are horror stories coming from every corner of the globe, nut
3:50 pm
Babbler

no way, nut!!! I'm shocked..
3:50 pm
evanonut

and that's for one month, i need a minimum of two.
3:50 pm
evanonut

i think it's insurance companies trying to scare us from national healthcare
3:52 pm
evanonut

hey, i'm plugging away here now, guess i just had to get mad.
3:52 pm
Babbler

:D I got mad at the grid and that seemed to work for me!
3:54 pm
evanonut

stalled
3:56 pm
Babbler

have you got a sea of green still?
3:56 pm
Babbler

or did you hit a wrong number?
3:56 pm
evanonut

more like scattered lakes
3:56 pm
evanonut

but i'm way farther than my first adventure
3:56 pm
Babbler

ok, so you didn't hit a wrong number?
3:57 pm
evanonut

hmm, not that i know of yet
3:57 pm
evanonut

don't even have a 3x3 done yet to tell the truth
3:57 pm
hurshy

i finished before, but i'm retrying on paper now to see if i can get it without that box 1 given, with real logic
3:58 pm
Babbler

right, try this.... look for pairs... then pick one to hypothetically see where it takes you. I change the colour to red, and "pencil" in as far as I can go...
3:58 pm
evanonut

found another
3:58 pm
evanonut

don't need to guess...yet
3:58 pm
Babbler

I leave all the other little greenies where they are....
3:58 pm
Babbler

oh ok... save it for later then ;D
3:59 pm
evanonut

nope, not yet
3:59 pm
Babbler

hursh, I want to know what you find, ok? : )
4:00 pm
evanonut

i don't think i'll be guessing
4:00 pm
evanonut

hey, or maybe i will, dang
4:00 pm
hurshy

it could take a WHILE babs, but i'll let you know tomorrow if you are gone
4:01 pm
hurshy

i'm going to use some of the posted jargony links from earlier in the day
4:01 pm
Babbler

k, hursh : )
4:01 pm
hurshy

i WAS awfully sleepy this morning so didn't try my hardest
4:02 pm
Babbler

actually, I'm about ready for tea so I'll skip off now. see you all later / tomorrow. Good luck!! :D
4:02 pm
hurshy

bye babs!
4:03 pm
evanonut

bye bbsy
4:13 pm
David Mitchell

(yawns)
4:15 pm
David Mitchell

I'm using that one number.. Will probably fill it in over the next hour or two between other things.
4:16 pm
David Mitchell

Or it might not take that long..
4:16 pm
hokie carla

After getting that one number, I finished with no guessing. Still had a lot of thinking to do, but no guesses.
4:18 pm
beertje

Expert?!
4:19 pm
beertje

Man, I thought it wouldn't get harder than hard
4:19 pm
beertje

Hi everyone :)
4:24 pm
David Mitchell

Hi, bjornkri
4:25 pm
David Mitchell

If you find it possible to solve without "forcing chains" or guessing, let us know..
4:27 pm
Mattthejackass

maybe we just need a little hint, maybe... the bottom right box, of the bottom right square. if anyone has that, it would be handy
4:27 pm
beertje

Don't even know what 'forcing chains' are, but I'll try ;P
4:28 pm
Mattthejackass

so far all I've managed is a 3
4:29 pm
David Mitchell

I think it's possible to get a 4 as well
4:29 pm
Mattthejackass

hint?
4:31 pm
evanonut

matt, don't make the lines go pink
4:31 pm
Mattthejackass

hahahaa
4:33 pm
David Mitchell

Heheheh
4:34 pm
DaveMan

I have the first 3 and 4, but what's the next one anyone got? I've been stuck here for hours and hours
4:34 pm
DaveMan

Just give me a number to look for
4:35 pm
Mattthejackass

ive made a stupid guess, hoping its right
4:35 pm
David Mitchell

Umm, hurshy gave a great clue a little while ago
4:35 pm
David Mitchell

Oh, it's hiding now
4:37 pm
DaveMan

bummer
4:41 pm
David Mitchell

I can't see it on the log either
4:41 pm
David Mitchell

Perhaps you can
4:42 pm
israel

Are you sure it's solvable? I tried a depth first search, trying each of three values for one square, and all led to conflicts
4:43 pm
hurshy

hi hi
4:43 pm
hurshy

it's solvable
4:43 pm
hurshy

we're just not clear on whether it is solvable without guessing
4:43 pm
Mattthejackass

bottom,right box bottom,right square isnt 8
4:43 pm
David Mitchell

"the first box is the number of planets times the number of peas in a pod plus the normal human number of fingers divided by the number of [swans a-swimming] in the 12 days of christmas"
4:43 pm
hurshy

or once again on the definition of guessing
4:44 pm
David Mitchell

That's hurshy's clue with correction
4:44 pm
hurshy

oh, look at me getting quoted
4:44 pm
David Mitchell

It's a classic, hurshy
4:44 pm
David Mitchell

;)
4:44 pm
hurshy

like dickens
4:44 pm
hurshy

oh i forgot | like dickens
4:45 pm
derfasaurus

are you always here hurshy or does it just take you all day to do a puzzle?
4:45 pm
hurshy

my sister and i decided that in e-communication there needs to be a way to indicate sarcasm, and we chose starting with | since that is not used for much
4:45 pm
hurshy

oh i finished the puzzle
4:45 pm
hurshy

but now i am redoing it
4:45 pm
hurshy

on paper
4:45 pm
hurshy

to see if i can get it w/o that first number
4:46 pm
hurshy

i leave myself logged in and check in now and then
4:48 pm
hurshy

i do NOT understand this jargon!
4:49 pm
hurshy

grrr
4:49 pm
hurshy

look at all the marty's though! isn't he cute?
4:50 pm
David Mitchell

Marty?
4:51 pm
hurshy

my cat
4:51 pm
David Mitchell

The cat?
4:51 pm
road

the kitty
4:51 pm
David Mitchell

Ah :)
4:51 pm
Mattthejackass

I really can't find anything other than the 3, where abouts is the 4? is there a technique I don't know about?
4:52 pm
jdog

right below the 8, bottom center
4:52 pm
Mattthejackass

oh yeah, I do have it :S
4:52 pm
Mattthejackass

woops :P
4:53 pm
hurshy

there is another 3 that can be placed easily unless i copied the puzzle down wrong
4:53 pm
pthomp

8s in middle column
4:53 pm
blitzkrieg

what the fuck's goin'on round here?
4:53 pm
blitzkrieg

:)
4:54 pm
jdog

no need for language, might be kids here
4:54 pm
hurshy

odd, too, bc doc g has a <beep> on babble chat, why not here?
4:55 pm
blitzkrieg

who knows how many time left to the next round?
4:56 pm
hurshy

just over 7 hours
4:56 pm
DaveMan

david & hurshy -- thanks for the hint. i'll try it.
4:56 pm
beertje

Hence the "7+ hours left" below the puzzle ;)
4:56 pm
blitzkrieg

but a...ist only one puzzle a day?
4:56 pm
hurshy

only one a day yes
4:56 pm
hurshy

for more try www.websudoku.com
4:57 pm
blitzkrieg

ok
4:57 pm
blitzkrieg

let me says that the puzzles here are tuff
4:57 pm
beertje

Right, all is green and the 3 and 4 have been found... now to get cracking
4:57 pm
hurshy

yes websudoku does not seem to have any like this
4:58 pm
hurshy

fishy cycles, my goodness, i don't get them
4:59 pm
Mattthejackass

bah im going to bed, night all
4:59 pm
DaveMan

good luck, bjornkri... it ain't easy
5:23 pm
hurshy

well i think i at least understand y-cycles
5:24 pm
hurshy

i forgot to screencap today though so i am not sure i am getting it right in this redo
5:24 pm
artlady

Tough one, right?
5:25 pm
hurshy

yes artlady, indeed it is
5:26 pm
hurshy

i think different people have different definitions of what constitutes a valid sudoku
5:26 pm
The Wac

Hola!
5:26 pm
artlady

I just started this one...
5:26 pm
beertje

y-cycles? :\
5:27 pm
hurshy

i know, i am venturing into scary realms
5:27 pm
beertje

Anything more advanced than an x-wing is beyond me.. and even that has me scratching my head
5:27 pm
hurshy

i do not quite get x-cycles
5:28 pm
hurshy

or at least, i can't identify them properly
5:28 pm
artlady

I'm more a tri-cycle kind of player...
5:30 pm
hurshy

maybe we just haven't GOT any x-cycles in this puzzle
5:30 pm
hurshy

i wish caderoux were here, he seems to know about these weird thingys
5:30 pm
The Wac

um. . . what are x cycles and y cycles?
5:31 pm
hurshy

something on a site that someone posted this link for:
5:31 pm
hurshy

something on a site that someone posted this link for:
http://www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr/sud
oku/top95-analysis.htm
5:33 pm
The Wac

i see
5:35 pm
hurshy

i hope i am doing this right
5:39 pm
yul

undo botton wold be a lifesavior, Dr God :)
5:40 pm
beertje

*groan* Too hard a read
5:40 pm
beertje

I'd need someone to actually show me to get it :P
5:40 pm
hurshy

yul, there is one
5:40 pm
hurshy

no kidding, bjornkri, the only part i think i get is the y-cycles
5:41 pm
yul

do tell where
5:41 pm
hurshy

under the puzzle
5:41 pm
yul

one step undo
5:41 pm
hurshy

you can clear all, or go back to a checkpoint
5:42 pm
yul

not good enough for me :)
5:42 pm
beertje

I'm sure the relationship between r3c5 and r6c2 could reveal something.. just not sure how
5:43 pm
hurshy

i think it's working!
5:44 pm
The Wac

hooray for you hurshy!
5:45 pm
yul

i pressed lots of battons by mistake today. to tired
5:46 pm
hurshy

it DID work
5:47 pm
hurshy

only... i don't totally understand WHY y-cycles work. which does not make me feel totally happy.
5:47 pm
hurshy

oh well, that is enough thinking about sudoku for today
5:48 pm
beertje

I just understand enough about cycles to find one. And I just did. :P
5:48 pm
beertje

It's very frustrating though that I don't know what to do with it
5:52 pm
citizen511

Why is an "expert" puzzle worth the same amount of points as a "hard" puzzle? I nearly killed myself trying to solve that one.
5:59 pm
miller da killer

thanks to mayan warrior i have successfully finished my first expert sudoku!
6:01 pm
artlady

congrats!
6:06 pm
beertje

Right, I've definately found a continuous x-cycle of length.. uh.. 8. This is using every instance of 'x' found in the puzzle, so if I understand this correctly, I guess that won't help me one bit? :\
6:14 pm
beertje

oki, I got the definition now, I was on the wrong track all along :P never mind
6:18 pm
David Mitchell

Gack, there is a logical way to solve this? Shoot.
6:29 pm
hurshy

bjornkri - did you successfully use an x-cycle? i just used a whole bunch of y-cycles
6:30 pm
hurshy

i couldn't figure out the x-cycles
6:31 pm
hurshy

whatever you thought at 6:06 is what i thought too, i think
6:35 pm
corey

YES!!!!!!!!!! i done it onley took me sence 12:02 this morning
6:35 pm
raerae7133

cycles?
6:36 pm
hurshy

hax - yes, it's wacked
6:36 pm
raerae7133

Where would I learn such a technique?
6:36 pm
hurshy

i can USE y-cycles but i haven't applied my mind to seeing WHY they work
6:37 pm
hurshy

and i have not yet successfully used an x-cycle
6:37 pm
hurshy

http://www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr/sudoku/t
op95-analysis.htm
6:38 pm
hurshy

haven't even LOOKED at the 3D medusa business
6:40 pm
hurshy

why did this have to happen just when spring break ENDED
6:41 pm
raerae7133

You could just.. um.. I dunno. Read a book instead? :)
6:42 pm
beertje

Can you give me a hint where I might find a y-cycle? :p
6:42 pm
beertje

I think I get the concept, just can't spot one
6:42 pm
hurshy

oh i did the puzzle...
6:42 pm
hurshy

let me see, i will try to figure it out
6:43 pm
hurshy

well, first bjorn, did you figure out about the 1's in the top section?
6:43 pm
hurshy

and did you place the 3 in the top middle group
6:44 pm
beertje

No and no :\ I've got two-and-two candidates of ones in the top section.
6:45 pm
hurshy

well i didn't mean place the 1's, just eliminate it as a poss from one square
6:45 pm
beertje

I might have :P
6:45 pm
hurshy

just as you (hopefully) elminated the 6's as poss from 2 squares in the bottom right group?
6:45 pm
beertje

Yeah, I did
6:46 pm
hurshy

ok, and the 3 in the top middle is easy
6:47 pm
beertje

Yep, eliminated the two sixes below, but the three ? I've got two candidates there still
6:48 pm
hurshy

hang on, let me check, i have to look at how the puzzle looks blank again
6:48 pm
raerae7133

+5 points
6:49 pm
hurshy

ugh, why isn't it showing?
6:49 pm
hurshy

hax, what did you do? guess?
6:50 pm
hurshy

ok, bjorn, can you just tell me which numbers are in the top middle group to start with?
6:50 pm
raerae7133

No. I used that little clue from this morning
6:50 pm
beertje

.8. .21 5..
6:50 pm
System

oh, yeah, that is how i got the points too, but then i went back and did it on paper with these y-cycles
6:51 pm
System

sorry, that System is me, hurshy
6:51 pm
System

ok, bjornkri, and the 3's are in place in the middle group and the bottom middle group, right?
6:51 pm
beertje

top middle!
6:51 pm
beertje

I just realized what you meant :Ð
6:52 pm
beertje

Of course, I have that three... I was looking in the top row, middle column
6:52 pm
System

so you got the three?
6:52 pm
beertje

yeah
6:52 pm
System

OH
6:52 pm
beertje

c1r4
6:52 pm
beertje

shit... I shouldn't have said that
6:53 pm
beertje

(sorry, I got over excited)
6:53 pm
System

ok so i also figured out a little something with 7's, i think
6:53 pm
System

in the top row maybe?
6:53 pm
System

it's hard to remember, i erased a lot as i went and stuff
6:54 pm
System

ack! lost a milk dud
6:55 pm
System

found it
6:56 pm
beertje

hmm, no can't see anything special about the sevens in the top row
6:57 pm
System

can't they only go 2 places in the top middle group, and thus...
6:57 pm
beertje

When you say top middle... :P
6:57 pm
System

when i say GROUP i mean 3x3 square
6:58 pm
beertje

so the top middle one would be rows 1-3, columns 4-6
6:58 pm
System

yes
6:59 pm
beertje

But the three I found earlier was in rows 4-6, columns 1-3 so maybe we weren't talking about the same thing?
6:59 pm
System

oh, you should find both 3's
6:59 pm
System

i THINK
7:00 pm
System

hang on, i have to log out and back in
7:01 pm
hurshy

good GRIEF
7:01 pm
TP17

here's what I have:

http://www.timmyponline.com/random/sud
oku.jpg
7:01 pm
beertje

I have two possible threes in the middle top group still. There are threes in the middle and the bottom middle, but that's not enough.
7:01 pm
hurshy

i copied that first 8 down in the wrong place, so i solved an entirely different sudoku
7:02 pm
beertje

oh dear..
7:02 pm
beertje

That explains alot though ;)
7:02 pm
hurshy

why you can't find my y-cycles and i can't find any x-cycles?
7:03 pm
beertje

yeah for one :P Also why I couldn't find that three in the top-col
7:03 pm
hurshy

guess we'll have to wait until another day to master these techniques. i want to watch idol.
7:03 pm
beertje

err row
7:03 pm
beertje

yeah, and time for bed for me
7:04 pm
hurshy

yes, i thought it was odd that i had missed it the first go-round when it was so easy
7:04 pm
hurshy

well, see ya
7:04 pm
beertje

later
7:05 pm
beertje

TP17: About the same for me, only you seem to have eliminated alot more than me
7:06 pm
TP17

somebody posted a text file earlier, and it had some instructions to get the third number. that's why some of my 'possibles' are gone
7:06 pm
TP17

I couldn't follow the logic, but other people used it and said that it worked.
7:13 pm
CJ162003

finished after an hour
7:17 pm
caderoux

Found a good summary of all techniques here: http://shrinkster.com/dhh
7:19 pm
Shaiman

so what is the "magic" technique that we need to know for this one?
7:22 pm
TP17

I finished, but I had to guess on 2 particular squares
7:22 pm
TP17

and I got help from a text file that somebody posted earlier to get me to the point where I had to guess on the two squares
7:23 pm
TP17

If anybody wants to see where I got to with the help of the text file:

http://www.timmyponline.com/random/sud
oku.jpg
7:23 pm
TP17

Good night all
7:26 pm
caderoux

very long forcing chains discussed in this file - http://www.ronincyberpunk.com/3.txt - from there I completed it - if you did all the steps in that file you should be down to mostly basic pairs and hidden singles.
7:29 pm
scottru

i don't really want to follow somebody else's printout from a program: is there some easily-explainable logic to break in?
7:33 pm
caderoux

assuming you've got the 3 and the 4 and done the eliminations you can with the 1s and the 6s, right...
7:33 pm
scottru

got the 3 and 4; I think I did the 1/6 elims but I'm not sure, I started last night.
7:34 pm
scottru

can you point me to a section to jog my memory?
7:34 pm
scottru

I think I did something while working the puzzle.
7:39 pm
peternl

hmm, I think I'll try a new technique
7:41 pm
peternl

nope, I think I wont bother ;-) have fun all
7:44 pm
caderoux

The solver at http://act365.com/sudoku/ generates those chains. Other than the people who guess, there is only the chains or one of the more computer-oriented techniques like template exclusion.
7:51 pm
Ezpinaka

a duel with ashling
7:53 pm
ashling

:)
7:55 pm
David Mitchell

I know I could stretch my brain greatly by forcing chains, but I am too lazy
8:05 pm
yul

i finished it ... exosted... must look away
8:06 pm
caderoux

The command line solver gives a different slant - try this chain: 1. The cell (3,1) is one of 2 candidates for the value 1 in Row 3.
2. The cell (1,7) is one of 2 candidates for the value 1 in Row 1.
3. The cell (4,4) is one of 2 candidates for the value 1 in Row 4.
The move (4,4):=1 leads to a contradiction.
The cell (4,5) is the only candidate for the value 1 in Row 4.
8:06 pm
mamabear

I just found an excellent website with techniques:
8:06 pm
mamabear

http://www.angusj.com/sudoku/hints.php
8:08 pm
yul

9 hrs 1 min... of time wasted
8:09 pm
caderoux

But unfortunately, none of those are needed to solve this one - even Simple Sudoku will not give hints until you make progress beyond the forcing chain.
8:10 pm
yul

had to guess in many areas and started 3 times.
8:15 pm
yul

i need an axtra colour for double guessing :)
8:17 pm
evanadine

man, ive only placed 2 numbers today...heh
8:18 pm
bongomama

iv got 4
8:19 pm
Shaiman

after i ran into a dead end, i ran it through a solver to see the logic that i was missing. according to the solver, there is either more than one solution, or some guessing is necessary
8:21 pm
caderoux

The solvers I used show only one valid solution.
8:21 pm
Shaiman

did the solver use logic only, or a trial and error approach?
8:22 pm
Shaiman

once i permitted the solver to "guess" it was able to solve the puzzle, but it claims logic alone wasn't able to
8:23 pm
caderoux

They use different guessing techniques which end up with a contradiction. I guess it all depends on what we mean by logic...
8:23 pm
caderoux

Since there is only one solution, it must be deducible by logic, no matter how tortured...
8:24 pm
Shaiman

hehe. yeah, i suppose you are right
8:30 pm
caderoux

What most people object to as a guess is the first step in reductio ad absurdum or proof by contradiction. In this case an assumption is proven false by producing a contradiction. But many patterns and techniques people regularly use in Sudoku really are like RAD.
8:30 pm
Shaiman

this is the first time i've had to revert to anything like that
8:34 pm
caderoux

It's rare. Simple Sudoku doesn't even generate these (for me). I know there has been some work to determine how many grids there are. I know there are 36^3 possible or 46656 possible arrangements or templates for a single digit throughout the puzzle. I'd love to know what the distribution of difficulty levels are throughout all possible Sudokus - but Sudokus are more than the grids - there are also choices about the givens - which multiplies the possibilities greatly.
8:34 pm
Sulihin

yeah but supposedly that shouldn't be necessary
8:36 pm
caderoux

Opinions vary... http://shrinkster.com/dhj
8:38 pm
caderoux

This one was definitely far more difficult than the previous expert-level one here.
8:41 pm
Shaiman

ah well, gotta split. good luck, all!
8:42 pm
hurshy

caderoux - these x-cycles and y-cycles and medusa 3D's i was looking at look more "logical" to me than the chains you mention, which still strike me as guessing, but maybe they really amount to the same thing? what do you know about them? do you think that if one learns those techniques one can solve every sudoku?
8:43 pm
Sulihin

the solver that produces the chains uses the bifrucation techniques that are still technically guessing, i wish we knew for sure if this puzzle required it or not :(
8:51 pm
caderoux

I've keyed this one into the medusa solver at http://shrinkster.com/dhk
8:52 pm
yul

guessing
8:53 pm
hurshy

ok, i'm going to try it, i was thinking that site looked helpful so i'll probably play around with it. thanks, caderoux.
8:56 pm
hurshy

wait, so you can't go through the puzzle yourself on that site? i thought you could. i thought it was going to let me do what i could, and then show me where to see the cycles and stuff so i could learn how they work.
8:57 pm
hurshy

but i don't seem to be able to change the marks to eliminate those 6's and 1's, for instance.
8:57 pm
yul

the only thing i have learned from today's puzzle is how to recognise the one which is solved by guessing :)
8:58 pm
caderoux

I think you can, but I haven't figured out how - I've just using hint and step to understand its logic (which is different to any of the others I've seen posted here) It starts by eliminating (after the 1s and 6s) 2 from r7c7
8:58 pm
hurshy

oh, i see
8:59 pm
yul

the 2s is easy. you can only go one way or another with them
9:00 pm
caderoux

Well, then that's the key, cos once you've got that, there are no forcing chains...
9:01 pm
Twinkie

caderoux: how did you eliminate 2 from r7c7? b/c I decided to guess on r4c8, where I had either a 2 or an 8, and i tried the 8 ad it didn't work, so i thought that meant it had to be a 2...which then means r7c7 has to be a 2?
9:01 pm
caderoux

YES!!!!!!! That is it. There is nothing else needed to solve this one. Do a regular colors technique on the 2s and then all the 2s drop right out. Have no idea why Simple Sudoku doesn't hint for this.
9:01 pm
yul

2s are the dead end
9:03 pm
yul

simple sudoku makes easy thinks look difficult. i reckon, bad info design?
9:03 pm
caderoux

wait, wait. I might have made a keypunch error
9:08 pm
caderoux

Twinkie - you're partially right, r7c7 isn't 2, but it takes more than colors, I'm trying to distill it from the medusa solver's info about that chain.
9:08 pm
caderoux

Which explains why SS doesn't hint this.
9:10 pm
lawfully

Yesterday when I tried, I figured either r7c7 or r7c8 should be a 2, and I started with one and led to the dead end after the while (guess I started with r7c7), but starting with a 2 in r7c8 lead to another cul-de-sac
9:10 pm
lawfully

sooner or later...
9:11 pm
lawfully

but, anyway, it's a guessing...
9:12 pm
Dossy

evening, everyone :)
9:12 pm
Dossy

ooh, an "expert" puzzle tonight :)
9:13 pm
lawfully

before that, I started with a bifurcation of a 1 in r4c4 or r4c5... also dead end
9:13 pm
lawfully

so, I guess just one guess (bifurcation) is not enough to solve this one...
9:14 pm
lawfully

starting with a 1 in r4c5 looked very promising... but failed...
9:15 pm
yul

i remember finding a contradiction when i started wiyh one of the 2s from middle left square (if it helps, lawfully)
9:16 pm
caderoux

r7c7 definitely not 2 - still trying to give y'all the simplest logic - there were 7 chains in that method ronin posted! - after that, it drops out.
9:16 pm
lawfully

that means a 2 should be in r7c8?
9:17 pm
lawfully

thanks, yul
9:18 pm
Twinkie

oi!
9:19 pm
lawfully

I see the logic why r7c7 cannot be a 2
9:19 pm
Twinkie

accidentally hit "save as checkpoint" instead of "return to checkpoint" when I followed a trail....but if caderoux is right that r7c7 isn't a 2, it wouldn'thave mattered anyway. i give up! :-)
9:19 pm
yul

but 2s will not take you to the end :(
9:19 pm
lawfully

if r7c7 is a 2, then r5c7 cannot be a 2
9:19 pm
Twinkie

part of the prob is i just can't see all the diff things youguys see. i guess you are using diff software? what is medusa?
9:21 pm
caderoux

If you get the 2s, there is nothing more complicated than colors afterwards.
9:22 pm
yul

twinkle, have you seen the league of gentlemen'? LOL
9:44 pm
bongomama

i thinnk 7s are teaming up on me and wont let compleat this puzzle
9:46 pm
caffeinatedelf

DOOD. that was hard!
9:58 pm
caderoux

But there are a LOT of colors (more straightforward forcing chains) afterwards
10:08 pm
Yisifri

ashling?
10:08 pm
ashling

hi :D
10:12 pm
hurshy

ugh, i still don't get it, how does that prove r7c7 isn't 2? why can't the greens be right, and r4c6 a 6? do i need to look at other cells to see why or just the ones it is highlighting?
10:16 pm
caderoux

I can't figure out the r7c7<>2 either, but at least it's only one mystery step - all the colors after it are explained easily by Simple Sudoku, whereas in the file posted earlier, there are another 6 chains you need to follow...
10:18 pm
hurshy

i don't like mystery steps :(
10:18 pm
LeslieAnn

whoa, it's like people are talking another language in here
10:20 pm
migrod

omg....finally done...now i can go to bed in peace
10:20 pm
hurshy

sorry leslie, we are referring to another website that shows you how to solve puzzles step-by-step
10:20 pm
yul

hurshy, could you direct me to the plase of colours and chains, please
10:21 pm
Sulihin

can't figure out the notation?
10:21 pm
LeslieAnn

eh, no problem, i just started... maybe i should turn back!
10:22 pm
caderoux

Go here: http://shrinkster.com/dhk - hint/step, hint/step, hint/step - but I can't figure out the chain 2(B) from the highlighting.
10:24 pm
hurshy

that sounds like s&m or something "the place of colors and chains"
10:24 pm
Yisifri

http://www.simes.clara.co.uk/programs/sudokut
echnique9.htm
10:24 pm
Yisifri

ignore technique9
10:25 pm
hurshy

hard for me to follow the marks anyway, i need the little numbers so i don't have to constantly think what each mark is
10:30 pm
Sulihin

it basically colors 2 then eliminates B right?
10:31 pm
caderoux

But why B?
10:32 pm
Chameleon

damn
10:32 pm
Chameleon

we have to guess in this one, right?
10:33 pm
caderoux

you can if you want to
10:34 pm
Sulihin

it tried it and found a conflict?
10:35 pm
caderoux

but not within the 2s
10:37 pm
caderoux

there is something external like the 1/6 pair at r1c7 interacting with the 6s in box 6
10:38 pm
Sulihin

it found a conflict with 9s in column 1
10:39 pm
Sulihin

i don't get it really :(
10:39 pm
Sulihin

it does odd things with 7s in a chain later too
10:40 pm
Jordan

Sulihin: If you find a conflict, that means you made a mistake.. you have to either try to backtrack and fix it or start over
10:41 pm
LeslieAnn

ugh i don't think i like expert level
10:42 pm
hurshy

what i don't get is why none of the evils i've ever done on websudoku are anything like as complex as this
10:42 pm
Sulihin

yeah i'm talking about how a solver is solving the puzzle, i gave up like 12 hours ago :)
10:42 pm
Jordan

ah
10:44 pm
yul

caderoux, i am glad that i went to your recomended assistant sudoku/solver site. 'This page also demonstrates that all methods of solving Sudoku puzzles are simply variants of trial and error.' i was so glad to read that there! also they call macs 'macintoshes'. i like
10:47 pm
yul

i respect guessing from now on
10:48 pm
raggedyandy3478

lol
10:51 pm
raggedyandy3478

that is what i am doing right now
10:58 pm
NatLT

hi lil leslie! you will have to see my icon for babble ;)
11:02 pm
LeslieAnn

hi nat. i am currently cheating at sudoku (what if this number went here....)
11:02 pm
NatLT

cheating? how do you cheat?
11:03 pm
LeslieAnn

well, i cheat by "picking" numbers to go places with no discernable logic, then go back and change it if they're not right. this one is haaaaard
11:04 pm
NatLT

I saw it was hard after only a couple mins looking at it, so I think I will wait till the flip to tackle the next one
11:05 pm
yul

but i still believe in possibility of solving sudoku without lucky guessing. i have to learn more about sudoku solving
11:06 pm
LeslieAnn

oh i believe that too. i just don't believe it's going to happen for me tonight. :)
11:06 pm
yul

god by
11:06 pm
yul

good by :)
11:30 pm
NatLT

leslie, still on? how goes to board?
11:35 pm
Ezpinaka

hope tommorrow it will be a little easier
11:36 pm
Ezpinaka

h
11:36 pm
NatLT

that is what I am wating for, can't get this one at all
11:49 pm
santa1563

i picked the wrong day to wait till the last minute
11:50 pm
NJL

Arghh, I printed it out and did it on paper last night, now I have to type it in
11:52 pm
NJL

done! cya